Received: from mail-vc0-f188.google.com ([209.85.220.188]:41654) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XeX0f-00044w-H3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:38 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f188.google.com with SMTP id le20sf278693vcb.15 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vMM3hWA8NrjMQjJVeIEUz71YwevOxlA+xmH3iqmEAiA=; b=LIIlWLFtMdnj0IetPqGY4X/rLCxxXzMKeWxR56q6Rp0FV1tJ0fqLV2/dYqPTfnQK2f kD6St5gfZK7gVNo4hkWWDLD8axBjz5p7NIM5Bdwq411TNmhL604bDmW7BkwPVk4qESzn KNolrHzvsAPm3MIkyijP+DNPeWli3wFh55ixxrGcg2Blcd34p3c7xhUTXs/+sG9ifixg lkNV3BC3huOJQoapy8WPWvo+M6js6RT3aslcqpk/PIJu9y8jDugKkyzjWBPHejDOrLqM I+2Nvt5AMJNTHLi+u6KUlsCMpAg3MBHz4s1z8jSmecRQlkPHojpxGYQgY9g+otQusJ7v d+rA== X-Received: by 10.140.105.196 with SMTP id c62mr1989qgf.38.1413411926724; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.19.147 with SMTP id 19ls461927qgh.78.gmail; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.29.204 with SMTP id i52mr10342034yha.14.1413411926350; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x236.google.com (mail-qg0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im4si3416481qcb.1.2014.10.15.15.25.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236; Received: by mail-qg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z107so1709430qgd.27 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.90.20 with SMTP id w20mr2466822qgd.88.1413411926232; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.97.117 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <86ppdtmjln.fsf@cmarib.ramside> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 18:25:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] tosmabru test: intelligible explanation sought From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c11b0ac8d63005057d9b16 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c11b0ac8d63005057d9b16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My mental algorithm is a somewhat more unified version of yours. I look at it as CMAVO-X. If X would be a gismu form or a lujvo form, then CMAVO-X is CMAVO X. Otherwise it stays together. The CMAVO in CVC-X is the CV; the CMAVO in CV'V-X is the CV'V; the CMAVO in CVV-X is the CVV. We fix the first case with a {y} hyphen; we fix the other two cases with a consonant hyphen ({r}, {n}, {l}, in that order). One nice thing about this view is that it shows how "tosmabru" and "slinku'i" are dual to one another. "slinku'i" is the manifestation of the rule that when X is a zi'evla (fu'ivla in CLL terminology), CMAVO-X does *not* fragment. mi'e la latro'a mu'o On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, wrote: > >> coi rodo >> >> I'm looking for an (intelligible) explanation of the "tosmabru test" >> that's part of the "lujvo-making alogrithm" in section 11 of chapter 4 >> of the CLL (the chapter on morphology). The problem I'm having is that >> the explanation of the tosmabru test on p. 71 can only be understood by >> someone who already understands the test. (...which kind of defeats the >> point of reading and writing about it, doesn't it?) In particular: >> > > I answer your questions, but then I will give you a different procedure t= o > test for tosmabru that I find easier to follow. > > 1. In the pattern "CVC...CVC + X", is the "..." intended to represent >> a sequence only of CVC rafsi? >> > > Yes. > > 2. What does "something which has caused a 'y'-hyphen to be installed >> between the previous CVC and itself by one of the above rules" >> mean? Is that just a complicated way of saying that the final >> consonant of the final CVC and initial consonant of X formed an >> impermissible consonant pair? Does reference to "the above rules" >> include rule 5, the tosmabru test itself? >> > > No, it refers to the rules up to 4. Tosmabru failure will only require yo= u > to insert a single y-hyphen, which we haven't inserted at this point yet. > > 3. When "no further hyphens are needed", to what level of recursion >> does that refer? >> > > This test is not recursive. (5b) says that if at least one of the CC pair= s > up to the first y-hyphen (or up to the end of the word if there are no > y-hyphens) is not a permissible initial, then the test is over and the > lujvo passes the test (it's not a tosmabru fail). > > 4. When installing a y-hyphen at "the first such joint", is the first >> joint counted from the left, or from the right? >> > > First from the left. > > 5. I presume, if the tosmabru test doesn't apply, that the lujvo >> "passes" the test (because it's the last step in the lujvo-making >> algorithm), but the description doesn't explicitly state this. >> > > Yes. > > >> Basically, the description in the CLL can only be understood if you >> already understand the test, or can re-invent it yourself. Could >> somebody please point me to a clear explanation of this "tosmabru test"? >> > > Here's another version of the test: > > A lujvo with CVC- as it's initial rafsi (CVC-X) is a candidate for > tosmabru failure. If C-X is a valid lujvo, where C is the final C of CVC-= , > then you need to insert a y-hyphen: CVCyX, otherwise you don't. > > Unlike the CLL test, this version of the test requires you to be capable > of identifying whether a certain form (C-X) is a lujvo or not, but you ha= ve > to be able to do this to parse lojban anyway, so that shouldn't be an > impediment. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c11b0ac8d63005057d9b16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My mental algorithm is a somewhat more unified v= ersion of yours. I look at it as CMAVO-X. If X would be a gismu form or a l= ujvo form, then CMAVO-X is CMAVO X. Otherwise it stays together. The CMAVO = in CVC-X is the CV; the CMAVO in CV'V-X is the CV'V; the CMAVO in C= VV-X is the CVV. We fix the first case with a {y} hyphen; we fix the other = two cases with a consonant hyphen ({r}, {n}, {l}, in that order).

One nice thing about this view is that it shows how "tosmabru"= ; and "slinku'i" are dual to one another. "slinku'i&= quot; is the manifestation of the rule that when X is a zi'evla (fu'= ;ivla in CLL terminology), CMAVO-X does not fragment.

m= i'e la latro'a mu'o

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, <sunris= e2000@comcast.net> wrote:
c= oi rodo

I'm looking for an (intelligible) explanation of the "tosmabru tes= t"
that's part of the "lujvo-making alogrithm" in section 11 of = chapter 4
of the CLL (the chapter on morphology).=C2=A0 The problem I'm having is= that
the explanation of the tosmabru test on p. 71 can only be understood by
someone who already understands the test.=C2=A0 (...which kind of defeats t= he
point of reading and writing about it, doesn't it?)=C2=A0 In particular= :

I answer your questions, but t= hen I will give you a different procedure to test for tosmabru that I find = easier to follow.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 In the pattern "CVC...CVC + X", is the "...&= quot; intended to represent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a sequence only of CVC rafsi?
Yes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 What does "something which has caused a 'y'-hy= phen to be installed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the previous CVC and itself by one of the abov= e rules"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mean?=C2=A0 Is that just a complicated way of saying t= hat the final
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consonant of the final CVC and initial consonant of X = formed an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 impermissible consonant pair?=C2=A0 Does reference to = "the above rules"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 include rule 5, the tosmabru test itself?

No, it refers to the rules up to 4. Tosmabru= failure will only require you to insert a single y-hyphen, which we haven&= #39;t inserted at this point yet.

=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 When "no further hyphens are needed", to what lev= el of recursion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 does that refer?

This test is not recursive. (5b) says that if at least one of the CC = pairs up to the first y-hyphen (or up to the end of the word if there are n= o y-hyphens) is not a permissible initial, then the test is over and the lu= jvo passes the test (it's not a tosmabru fail).
<= div>
=C2=A0 4.=C2=A0 When installing a y-hyphen at "the first such joint&qu= ot;, is the first
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 joint counted from the left, or from the right?

First from the left.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 I presume, if the tosmabru test doesn't apply, that the= lujvo
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "passes" the test (because it's the last= step in the lujvo-making
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm), but the description doesn't explicitly= state this.
=C2=A0
Yes.
=C2=A0
Basically, the description in the CLL can only be understood if you
already understand the test, or can re-invent it yourself.=C2=A0 Could
somebody please point me to a clear explanation of this "tosmabru test= "?

Here's another versi= on of the test:

A lujvo with CVC- as it's init= ial rafsi (CVC-X) is a candidate for tosmabru failure. If C-X is a valid lu= jvo, where C is the final C of CVC-, then you need to insert a y-hyphen: CV= CyX, otherwise you don't.=C2=A0

Unlike the CLL= test, this version of the test requires you to be capable of identifying w= hether a certain form (C-X) is a lujvo or not, but you have to be able to d= o this to parse lojban anyway, so that shouldn't be an impediment.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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