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[216.109.115.69]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b2si2084459qcq.2.2014.10.26.14.01.05 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.69 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.69; Received: from [66.196.81.161] by nm17.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Oct 2014 21:01:05 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.153] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Oct 2014 21:01:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Oct 2014 21:01:05 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 719097.58071.bm@omp1029.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 88835 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Oct 2014 21:01:04 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: rto6wVsVM1mxebgQh1toEWpP91Sf.G9g5vCaQMeF3pEOLcQ 7fW2MkqbuRQ9GmZf.7ZIPmNUDb_pKPsMMjjbUZFZwagsdgkzomzbob2UY6pr DT9.d0s7K9Zrwr0U..7sk2DxU5iBxEhSoQzOLG90Ui4maW_q6TMnWzDSAqcE 1HDjNL642ThEn9OCL4wJWlRenMGik02xcfhRGCz7sGQ03HhtfNojQznkPmiY 8FepgIaQlabvOwS430PF2hmF5xIidAhIrW99F6w4Wij6SPGIW41qnLNO6xJb uE2fGX2dTcayXommVLuR7xgBBPMINg9K5bo7sFg7.vGYMiSScjvyetuqlx8H 2zr3mRgCTBpt9K_qXFDoKVYyVNUmWlw24fTpWOGXj3IgyaxT1iqnVo_39_5w XZb1fNrudP0ddvy8N060cThX8kYqsC1afhdV826WWu3ebALWMQ0i0beum7Qh oNcmpFyEJ5AJpZ2ual5BtYrx_PYrrrgmT.3U5ZAJayD3v45lB2i6OPSS8_aA mweGlrTzNyD6phoWRafI8k.QxL5AZi.uNpB8mOAT1gqrpiWcc8xE6pYRLu3f Hww1PXp5z1fdAoVn8oVKOixYnplZA6vF3npkHMlzycEE4KYnJBJxb968ih9e JlG.4ABy7LUqjh3CqzdJJQPT.Og5frwOWgLuGSfH9NZWfJpPCg5Z_Tg7E_v2 iMvL7IVCNDgmiPVH_rrTaF_sagU_A5MW3piE54HEwN5BWSSnubLCI0fTgwYO uTYPzZic7uSOzA2KronPR3S9Yks4UkJ6YqyLyUizcVFn3wJ6Zom9QCIZPV_p 8eoL1jJY- Received: from [99.92.108.29] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:01:04 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QW4gaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgKHRob3VnaCBzbGlnaHRseSBhYnN1cmQpIHByb3Bvc2l0aW9uLiAgQnJpbmdpbmcgdG9raSBwb25hIGluIGp1c3Qgc3RyZXNzZXMgdGhlIGFic3VyZCBzaWRlLiAgTG9qYmFuIGhhcyB0ZW4gdGltZXMgdGhlIHZvY2FidWxhcnkgb2YgdHAsIGp1c3QgY291bnRpbmcgZ2lzbXUgc3RyYWlnaHQsIGZvcnR5IHRpbWVzIHRha2luZyBpbiB0aGUgcGVybXV0YXRpb24gb2YgcGxhY2VzLCBhbmQgTG9yZCBrbm93cyBob3cgbWFueSB0aW1lcyBvbmNlIGNtYXZvIGFuZCBjb25zdHJ1Y3RlZCBmb3IBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.733 References: <544D34B1.7000000@gmx.de> <20141026183320.GD13145@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Message-ID: <1414357264.85340.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:01:04 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban's Biggest Problem or Why Still Nobody Speaks It To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.69 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-851393842-1414357264=:85340" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---910415156-851393842-1414357264=:85340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An interesting (though slightly absurd) proposition. Bringing toki pona in= just stresses the absurd side. Lojban has ten times the vocabulary of tp,= just counting gismu straight, forty times taking in the permutation of pla= ces, and Lord knows how many times once cmavo and constructed forms come in= . Yet tp is spoken (at least written) much more frequently per capita than= Lojban and usually within the first week of exposure. Factors in its favo= r are clearly the small vocabulary, mostly immediate usable for common thin= gs, and a small, easy grammar. The whole vocabulary can be absorbed more o= r less at one go but is, in fact, fed in small doses (a dozen words a lesso= n, more or less). The corresponding claim holds for the grammar. By contr= ast, Lojban vocabulary is typically dumped at once, all 1500 gismu, with no= significant lesson separation (largely because there are no really signifi= cant lesson books at all) and the same applies to the grammar. It is pretty easy to check that a tp utterance is grammatical and that what y= ou meant to say is at least one of the things you did say. With Lojban, ne= ither of these is simple and many are open to debate even after a formal pa= rser has done its damnedest. Indeed, this uncertainty was, in my experience= , the main reason for not using Lojban; not only was it difficult to speak = with confidence checking on the fly, but even after due diligence one could= not be confident one had said what one intended. All that being said, there are gaps in the vocabularies of both languages a= nd, while Lojban has means to fill those gaps eventually, tp does not offic= ially (but some word creep is already in evidence). And both are unZipfy a= nd getting worse. Thirty some years ago, the creation of rafsi (not then s= o called) was considered a great advance for Loglan, in that it reqularized= compound words (which were previous thrown together any which way and usua= lly ending up looking like gismu, e.g. -- one of JCB's own -- {bedgo} from = iirc {betsu gotso}) and made interpretation much more nearly possible (up t= o the usual vagueness of tanru). But, of course, many very common notions = in areas Loglanists (and now Lobanists) were likely to talk about involved = long compounds. Nothing has been done about this to speak of and what litt= le has been suggested (mainly various sort of acronymization, whether of th= e strict DARE sort or the freer Gestapo /Ogpu /kenken) are organized to preserve the transparency that the earlier Great Morphological Revoluti= on introduced, but rather are returns to the status quo ante, Short of the= LoCCan3 solution (scrap the structure of Lojban, take the statistics, and = build from scratch -- dropping the common languages bases in favor of neatl= y distributed forms and a list of common concepts discovered in actual usag= e), some transparent system of abbreviations seems the best hope. Btw, the absence of idioms is an effect, not a cause of lack of chat (or, a= t best, arises with it): it is hard to have a fac,on de pareler without a l= ot of parler. On Sunday, October 26, 2014 1:37 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: =20 2014-10-26 21:33 GMT+03:00 Robin Lee Powell : On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 06:51:45PM +0100, selpa'i wrote: >> Simply put, there aren't enough words, and the few words that >> exist do not enable us to make nuanced descriptions of the world. > >I would say it's a mixture of lack of words and lack of phrasal >idiom. > >Frankly, though, I consider the self-similarity of existing words, >and the vast array of accidental tongue twisters, to be more serious >problems than the lack of vocab. The language is *physically* hard >to speak, to an extent that is distinctly unpleasent. > And what is your personal solution ? >-- >http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni l= i'u > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-851393842-1414357264=:85340 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
An interesting (though slightly absurd) propositio= n.  Bringing toki pona in just stresses the absurd side.  Lojban = has ten times the vocabulary of tp, just counting gismu straight, forty tim= es taking in the permutation of places, and Lord knows how many times once = cmavo and constructed forms come in.  Yet tp is spoken (at least writt= en) much more frequently per capita than Lojban and usually within the firs= t week of exposure.  Factors in its favor are clearly the small vocabu= lary, mostly immediate usable for common things, and a small, easy grammar.=  The whole vocabulary can be absorbed more or less at one go but is, = in fact, fed in small doses (a dozen words a lesson, more or less).  T= he corresponding claim holds for the grammar.  By contrast, Lojban vocabulary is typically dumped at once, all 1500 gismu, with no sig= nificant lesson separation (largely because there are no really significant= lesson books at all) and the same applies to the grammar.  It is pret= ty easy to check that a tp utterance is grammatical and that what you meant= to say is at least one of the things you did say.  With Lojban, neith= er of these is simple and many are open to debate even after a formal parse= r has done its damnedest. Indeed, this uncertainty was, in my experience, t= he main reason for not using Lojban; not only was it difficult to speak wit= h confidence checking on the fly, but even after due diligence one could no= t be confident one had said what one intended.

All that being said, there= are gaps in the vocabularies of both languages and, while Lojban has means= to fill those gaps eventually, tp does not officially (but some word creep= is already in evidence).  And both are unZipfy and getting worse. &nb= sp;Thirty some years ago, the creation of rafsi (not then so called) was co= nsidered a great advance for Loglan, in that it reqularized compound words = (which were previous thrown together any which way and usually ending up lo= oking like gismu, e.g. -- one of JCB's own -- {bedgo} from iirc {betsu gots= o}) and made interpretation much more nearly possible (up to the usual vagu= eness of tanru).  But, of course, many very common notions in areas Lo= glanists (and now Lobanists) were likely to talk about involved long compounds.  Nothing has been done about this to speak of and what lit= tle has been suggested (mainly various sort of acronymization, whether of t= he strict DARE sort or the freer Gestapo /Ogpu /kenken) are organized to pr= eserve the transparency that the earlier Great Morphological Revolution int= roduced, but rather are returns to the status quo ante,  Short of the = LoCCan3 solution (scrap the structure of Lojban, take the statistics, and b= uild from scratch -- dropping the common languages bases in favor of neatly= distributed forms and a list of common concepts discovered in actual usage= ), some transparent system of abbreviations seems the best hope.

Btw, the ab= sence of idioms is an effect, not a cause of lack of chat (or, at best, ari= ses with it): it is hard to have a fac,on de pareler without a lot of parle= r.


On Sunday, October 26, 2014 1:37= PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
 <= /div>



2014-10-26 21:33 GM= T+03:00 Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>= ;:
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 06:51:45PM +0100, selpa= 'i wrote:
> Simply put, there aren't enough words, and the few words that
> exist do not enable us to make nuanced descriptions of the world.

I would say it's a mixture of lack of words and lack of phrasal
idiom.

Frankly, though, I consider the self-similarity of existing words,
and the vast array of accidental tongue twisters, to be more serious
problems than the lack of vocab.  The language is *physically* hard to speak, to an extent that is distinctly unpleasent.

And what is your personal solu= tion ?


--
http://intelligence.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a = fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li= 'u

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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