Received: from mail-lb0-f191.google.com ([209.85.217.191]:59765) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XilW5-0003zU-1h for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:36 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f191.google.com with SMTP id n15sf263731lbi.8 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rXF+warcNsZ1k8toYsRPmK9KCQvGbs1CtQTc1yijq7g=; b=JcELe5inmGQqtvkFNIgVUmWH12p7T0sAARaYK7YSmMK2du3yd7LbpVZrITNfsqunpX fKVxXUWNEbkXlKDBjbojqtjfRhwBjUlhJj018Vtz/z1fgyLMs8wv/giI8cYZ29336D+d 9br7/N969pgY1SFcqn0TVD6epEegn0ni+s/NplABrJkq+XHf9Fz6W3+/Z3BDpTUzdwKF gYAt4JHQlyeIhF1OFQaIj9bddKto6qlmYWfyV4PdHVemEvVFXm6Tf267/LHba3oya9DW D7XgcfxUpGSVnWoTOii1QmkPStcN0z7VXgu5Oii2o9J4kMpY+qdsnDrykWtOBS4Yf8Rl o/Yw== X-Received: by 10.152.30.33 with SMTP id p1mr4103lah.37.1414421001442; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.9.168 with SMTP id a8ls679585lab.55.gmail; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.225.135 with SMTP id rk7mr5577084lbc.6.1414421000645; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cy3si495805wib.2.2014.10.27.07.43.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f; Received: by mail-wi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id h11so4574654wiw.8 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.87.73 with SMTP id v9mr21699285wiz.22.1414421000525; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.103.65 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Oct 2014 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3034198.S3dARjsPJe@caracal> References: <544D34B1.7000000@gmx.de> <3034198.S3dARjsPJe@caracal> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:43:20 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban's Biggest Problem or Why Still Nobody Speaks It From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044304dc4c9cda0506688d6a X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d044304dc4c9cda0506688d6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-10-27 3:35 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : > On Sunday, October 26, 2014 18:51:45 selpa'i wrote: > > Simply put, there aren't enough words, and the few words that exist do > > not enable us to make nuanced descriptions of the world. > > > > I see the two main aspects of the problem as being: > > > > 1) The existing words (specifically the gismu) are too vague by > > themselves (and yes, I know that this is by design) > > 2) Too many essential concepts are missing completely > > li'o > > > 2. "Not enough words" > > > > What do the words traffic, traffic lights, traffic jam have in common? > > They are all examples of everyday words that are completely missing from > > the Lojban lexicon. I could name hundreds more. And it makes speaking > > the language beyond a certain level impossible. > > "Traffic" is pretty clearly "ma'efle" in that sense. (Drug traffic is > something > else.) > > > If the goal is to have true fluent speakers of Lojban, then this > > lexicon-shaped hole in the language must be filled as soon as possible. > > I agree. > > Now let's consider some other languages that have undergone an expansion or > modernization of vocabulary in recent centuries: Hungarian, Turkish, > Hebrew, > and Navajo. Hungarian and Turkish are both agglutinative; long words > usually > consist of a single root with several affixes (like English > "antidisestablishmentarianism", which consists of the root "(e)sta" and a > bunch of affixes) or are compounds of such words. It is not difficult to > map SAE > vocabulary onto a word formation like that. > > Hebrew words consist of a root (usually three consonants, some have two or > four), a pattern of vowels and possibly inserted consonants called a binyan > (similar to grammatical voice but there are at least seven), and a few > affixes. > (The Arabic-derived vocabulary, much of which was discarded in the Turkish > language reform, is similar.) Much of the vocabulary for which new Hebrew > words were coined doesn't fit this form and was borrowed. > > Navajo is the most different from English, of these languages. I don't know > much about Navajo morphology, but I do know it belongs to an ancient > language > family, Dene-Yeniseian, which originated among hunter-gatherers in Siberia > and > spread across the Bering land bridge. Until the Spanish arrived, the > Navajos > had no domestic animals. If you look through the Navajo entries in > Wiktionary, > you'll see that they have very different ways of naming things. > > Lojban vocabulary formation is different from SAE in (at least) two ways: > it > has a different idea of what concepts are verbs and what are nouns (there > are > no adjectives), and long words typically contain almost as many roots as > syllables. This results in different ways of dividing up semantic space > (one > word means both "crowbar" and "nutpick", and if you're looking for an exact > equivalent of "august", forget it). > > As to "traffic light", I suggest "jezystisni". That doesn't have to be a > light, > and what it stops doesn't have to be traffic. > > What are some more essential concepts that are missing? > I think the problem is not in the our ability to solve such questions but in that people have to think every time they face such missing concept. Instead a fuller dictionary must preexist to stop diverting people from Lojban. Definitely thousands of words missing until we can stop. Solving them on demand is not an option. How fast will such single solutions enter jvs is another problem. > Pierre > -- > Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d044304dc4c9cda0506688d6a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-10-27 3:35 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Sunday, October 2= 6, 2014 18:51:45 selpa'i wrote:
> Simply put, there aren't enough words, and the few words that exis= t do
> not enable us to make nuanced descriptions of the world.
>
> I see the two main aspects of the problem as being:
>
> 1) The existing words (specifically the gismu) are too vague by
> themselves (and yes, I know that this is by design)
> 2) Too many essential concepts are missing completely

li'o

> 2. "Not enough words"
>
> What do the words traffic, traffic lights, traffic jam have in common?=
> They are all examples of everyday words that are completely missing fr= om
> the Lojban lexicon. I could name hundreds more. And it makes speaking<= br> > the language beyond a certain level impossible.

"Traffic" is pretty clearly "ma'efle" in tha= t sense. (Drug traffic is something
else.)

> If the goal is to have true fluent speakers of Lojban, then this
> lexicon-shaped hole in the language must be filled as soon as possible= .

I agree.

Now let's consider some other languages that have undergone an expansio= n or
modernization of vocabulary in recent centuries: Hungarian, Turkish, Hebrew= ,
and Navajo. Hungarian and Turkish are both agglutinative; long words usuall= y
consist of a single root with several affixes (like English
"antidisestablishmentarianism", which consists of the root "= (e)sta" and a
bunch of affixes) or are compounds of such words. It is not difficult to ma= p SAE
vocabulary onto a word formation like that.

Hebrew words consist of a root (usually three consonants, some have two or<= br> four), a pattern of vowels and possibly inserted consonants called a binyan=
(similar to grammatical voice but there are at least seven), and a few affi= xes.
(The Arabic-derived vocabulary, much of which was discarded in the Turkish<= br> language reform, is similar.) Much of the vocabulary for which new Hebrew words were coined doesn't fit this form and was borrowed.

Navajo is the most different from English, of these languages. I don't = know
much about Navajo morphology, but I do know it belongs to an ancient langua= ge
family, Dene-Yeniseian, which originated among hunter-gatherers in Siberia = and
spread across the Bering land bridge. Until the Spanish arrived, the Navajo= s
had no domestic animals. If you look through the Navajo entries in Wiktiona= ry,
you'll see that they have very different ways of naming things.

Lojban vocabulary formation is different from SAE in (at least) two ways: i= t
has a different idea of what concepts are verbs and what are nouns (there a= re
no adjectives), and long words typically contain almost as many roots as syllables. This results in different ways of dividing up semantic space (on= e
word means both "crowbar" and "nutpick", and if you'= ;re looking for an exact
equivalent of "august", forget it).

As to "traffic light", I suggest "jezystisni". That doe= sn't have to be a light,
and what it stops doesn't have to be traffic.

What are some more essential concepts that are missing?
I think the problem is not in the our ability to solve such questions but= in that people have to think every time they face such missing concept.
Instead a fuller dictionary must preexist to stop diverting people = from Lojban.
Definitely thousands of words missing until we can s= top.
Solving them on demand is not an option.
How fast = will such single solutions enter jvs is another problem.


Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d044304dc4c9cda0506688d6a--