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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:32:03 +0100
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
References: <20141018004531.GE20049@gonzales> <CAO7tK2c8JQsr+7zbrdos-9Wm1t8w+sH1SANSO6e_MGV4ZDjcow@mail.gmail.com> <20141018180946.GF20049@gonzales> <CAO7tK2dUSzYCWm+CNeNugkeU=aO6mWXSY3gn5dc+8XNU3GpasQ@mail.gmail.com> <20141018233648.GA29040@gonzales> <CAO7tK2eUqpe3AwAY-DxmONhxM3Pj5kyhTm605bAnD3iJEHVgug@mail.gmail.com> <20141021010639.GB11705@gonzales> <CAO7tK2c+ObFDqF_TZTQMjGJRZfZxpoY-pFB4_canWM3Lpdgvsw@mail.gmail.com> <20141022002214.GD25753@gonzales> <544D68A0.8000402@gmail.com> <20141028024248.GB6097@gonzales>
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On 28/10/2014 03:42, Martin Bays wrote:
>> {fi'o broda xy} has a rather vague semantic, it's not clear
>> how the bridi is related to the fact/event of "xy broda".
>>
>> However I think {fi'o xo'i TAG} =3D {TAG}, by definition.
> I guess that can't be literally true, since the former is vague as you
> say while the latter isn't.
>
Maybe should I have said =C2=AB I think that {fi'o xo'i fi'o broda} =3D {fi=
'o=20
broda} =C2=BB.

>> {xo'i}'s purpose is to allow using directly the predicates that are
>> underlying sumtcita whose associated predicate hasn't any Lojban
>> predicate word (e.g. {pu'i}, {nu'o}, {za'o} and the like).
>> However I'm not fond of {xo'i}, I'd rather prefer the missing sumtcita
>> predicates to be given a real predicate word and be done with it. :)
> It's useful for the kind of formal conversions this thread is mostly
> about, though. I don't know how to handle {pe [tag]} without using
> {xo'i} (and without having a lookup table to find an appropriate
> selbri).
I think ultimately using a lookup table would be the best option, so=20
that we definitively get rid of sumtcita in the logical form.

Moreover I don't think we can handle all the sumtcita the same way. If=20
{broda ba xy} implies {lo nu broda cu balvi xy}, can we infer that=20
{broda seka'a mi} implies {lo nu broda cu klama mi}? I don't think so.

A sumtcita =E2=86=94 bridi relative clause conversion table could look like=
 the=20
below:

SE ba X  =3D  xoi ke'a SE balvi X vau
se pi'o X  =3D  xoi X se pilno fi ke'a vau
SE ka'a X  =3D  xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u lo nu X SE klama vau
fau X  =3D  xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u X vau
(Here {ke'a} stands for the outer bridi.)

Furthermore, {ba} and {pu} are irregular sumtcita, in that their=20
underlying predicate is inversed when they're used with {bo}:
=E2=80=A2 { brode .ije *ba bo* brodo } =3D { brode .ije *ba* lo nu go'i cu =
brodo=20
}  (irregular ba/pu sumtcita)
=E2=80=A2 { brode .ije *ki'u bo* brodo } =3D { brode .ije *se ki'u* lo nu g=
o'i cu=20
brodo }  (regular sumtcita)

> By the way: if we take {broda} to be equivalent to {da fasnu gi'e nu
> broda}, is {broda xoi brodu} equivalent to {da fasnu gi'e nu broda kei
> gi'e brodu}?
>
> Martin
I think that's correct.

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.


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    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 28/10/2014 03:42, Martin Bays wrote:<=
br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:20141028024248.GB6097@gonzales" type=3D"cite">
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre wrap=3D"">{fi'o broda xy} has a rather vague semantic, it's no=
t clear=20
how the bridi is related to the fact/event of "xy broda".

However I think {fi'o xo'i TAG} =3D {TAG}, by definition.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=3D"">
I guess that can't be literally true, since the former is vague as you
say while the latter isn't.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Maybe should I have said =C2=AB I think that {fi'o xo'i fi'o broda} =3D
    {fi'o broda} =C2=BB.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:20141028024248.GB6097@gonzales" type=3D"cite">
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre wrap=3D"">{xo'i}'s purpose is to allow using directly the pred=
icates that are
underlying sumtcita whose associated predicate hasn't any Lojban
predicate word (e.g. {pu'i}, {nu'o}, {za'o} and the like).
However I'm not fond of {xo'i}, I'd rather prefer the missing sumtcita=20
predicates to be given a real predicate word and be done with it. :)
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=3D"">
It's useful for the kind of formal conversions this thread is mostly
about, though. I don't know how to handle {pe [tag]} without using
{xo'i} (and without having a lookup table to find an appropriate
selbri).</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I think ultimately using a lookup table would be the best option, so
    that we definitively get rid of sumtcita in the logical form.<br>
    <br>
    Moreover I don't think we can handle all the sumtcita the same way.
    If {broda ba xy} implies {lo nu broda cu balvi xy}, can we infer
    that {broda seka'a mi} implies {lo nu broda cu klama mi}? I don't
    think so.<br>
    <br>
    A sumtcita =E2=86=94 bridi relative clause conversion table could look =
like
    the below:<br>
    <br>
    SE ba X=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 xoi ke'a SE balvi X vau<br>
    se pi'o X=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 xoi X se pilno fi ke'a vau<br>
    SE ka'a X=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u lo nu X SE klama vau<b=
r>
    fau X=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u X vau<br>
    (Here {ke'a} stands for the outer bridi.)<br>
    <br>
    Furthermore, {ba} and {pu} are irregular sumtcita, in that their
    underlying predicate is inversed when they're used with {bo}:<br>
    =E2=80=A2 { brode .ije <b>ba bo</b> brodo } =3D { brode .ije <b>ba</b> =
lo nu
    go'i cu brodo }=C2=A0 (irregular ba/pu sumtcita)<br>
    =E2=80=A2 { brode .ije <b>ki'u bo</b> brodo } =3D { brode .ije <b>se ki=
'u</b>
    lo nu go'i cu brodo }=C2=A0 (regular sumtcita)<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:20141028024248.GB6097@gonzales" type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">By the way: if we take {broda} to be equivalent to {da=
 fasnu gi'e nu
broda}, is {broda xoi brodu} equivalent to {da fasnu gi'e nu broda kei
gi'e brodu}?

Martin
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I think that's correct.<br>
    <br>
    mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
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