Received: from mail-la0-f56.google.com ([209.85.215.56]:34918) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Xjjvw-0006Tf-75 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:18 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f56.google.com with SMTP id gd6sf249769lab.1 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pEjI0y6Eanh9J2rau2CnudBxZWUSN1AuRWGTaT3n65Q=; b=IPMCjSqQzfDOxy+EXfg1h4YteuA11pQ1GdC58GBylTbet97QvBskBJm/N/e9TdGNjI IDmInwMHnABrLWYmYt/7qyjCXnROd5MWxjF/ckX4NQzI9H5mZMDyP1XcHODMyXJdhiQy ul1kpG+9QLjSGxwRpQiOOrYV4cGUEGXe2hbuxl5B6hZy9A1JSPm0yhpUDRWWG+kbZyc8 rnxYNjq9MzRIQfRhBGsf2bwyEQv5U8AASprSHFpPe6U++USCEE7vebEQmIRJhNARaerM Mi3uNGrSOXmTKoHyDuXFN5CA3Xhg4J9zdmhl4slkcFGN+gapYiRW9/V1l0rpYMVzHy3U yNTg== X-Received: by 10.152.5.201 with SMTP id u9mr1390lau.25.1414653244654; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.5.134 with SMTP id s6ls250730las.27.gmail; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.147.131 with SMTP id tk3mr2591265lbb.2.1414653243663; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gk3si419268wib.1.2014.10.30.00.14.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a; Received: by mail-wg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id k14so4934522wgh.1 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.186.207 with SMTP id fm15mr18580232wjc.1.1414653243548; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.103.65 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:14:03 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Geometry shapes categorization From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7beb91020fea5605069ea070 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7beb91020fea5605069ea070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First we need a list of all concepts we want to have. We need a list of their defining properties. We need their complete definition in English. After that we can try matching them with existing Lojban words and their te bridi. If absent add new words with only those te bridi you need to get a complete specification but not more than that. If an existing word has more places than we need a new word should be considered instead. 2014-05-29 3:46 GMT+04:00 : > Hodge-Podge of Points: > > - Did you include: *kruvi, plita, sirji* (especially in contrast with > *linji*; what are the differences between these two words (how does > one say =E2=80=9Cgeodesic=E2=80=9D?)), *mokca, panra, cimde*? *plita* = and *karda/tapla* > (if the material terbri is erased) are geometric too. > - We probably want to be able to talk about tilings. > - We also lack an easy way to specify the metric of the space. > - I have been wanting to introduce Schl=C3=A4ffi symbols in Lojban. > - One thing that one must be careful of in Lojban is distinguishing > between measures and objects. This comes up when one says in English "= with > diameter ____" or "with angle ____". A diameter is a line. So, =E2=80= =9Cwith > diameter L=E2=80=9D (where L is defined to be some line) is proper (an= d follows the > definition). On the other hand, =E2=80=9Cwith diameter 1 (unit)=E2=80= =9D is abusive and > wrong: it should be =E2=80=9Cwith diameter measuring 1 unit=E2=80=9D. = Likewise for angles > and their measures. I try to be clear in English; Lojban needs to sepa= rate > the two too. I propose that lujvo or constructs with *merli* are > employed for the measures (the accuracy terbri thereof is sort of anno= ying > in some situations because in mathematical contexts, the accuracy is 1= , but > that could probably be covered in the elliptical); the objects should = be > referenced by the gismu. > - How does one distinguish between a loop (closed, connected, simple > (Jordan) curve), a spiral, a ring/annulus, a torus, an ellipse, a sphe= re, a > helix, and a whole bunch of related concepts? We have words only for a= few > of them, with a lot of overlap. > - Is there any implicit assumption that *cukla/bolci*-style roundness > implies convexity and connectedness? A simple, closed, connected (Jor= dan) > curve (=3D loop?) is basically a circle, but is more generalized in th= e sense > that it can be =E2=80=9Cvariably curvy=E2=80=9D. > > > > General Problems: > > 1) gismu list terbri for material/composition. Examples: *bolci, karda, > tapla*. > > 2) Many gismu improperly distinguish between volumes and surfaces. Eithe= r > we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be surfaces and > reference their encompassed regions by lujvo with =E2=80=9Carea=E2=80=9D/= *canlu* > (example: *bolci* means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D, *bolca=E2=80=99u* means= =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D), or we should > define (preferably all) geometric words to be the encompassed volume and > specify the boundary/surface by lujvo with perhaps *korbi* (example: > *bolci* means =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D, *bolkoi* means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2= =80=9D). Although, one must note > that the encompassed (interior) region can depend on interpret in some > metrics; a small loop on the ground on Earth (an oblate ellipsoidal > surface) may be determined to have a small area or a large one- and even > the shape of that area depends on this interpretation. > > > > An Off-Topic Problem for Math in Lojban: > > > - There is no general term for =E2=80=9Cevaluate=E2=80=9D (as of, say,= a function at a > particular input value). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7beb91020fea5605069ea070 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First we need a list of all concepts we want to have.
= We need a list of their defining properties.
We need their comple= te definition in English.

After that we can try ma= tching them with existing Lojban words and their te bridi.
If abs= ent add new words with only those te bridi you need to get a complete speci= fication but not more than that.
If an existing word has more pla= ces than we need a new word should be considered instead.

2014-05-29 3:46 GMT+04:= 00 <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:

Hodge-Podge of Points:

  • Did you include: kruvi, plita, sirji (especially in contras= t with linji; what are the differences between these two words (how does one say =E2=80=9Cgeodesic=E2=80=9D?)), mokca, panra, cimde? plita and karda/tapla (if the material terbri is erased) are geometric too.
    • <= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",&quo= t;serif"">We probably want to be able to talk about tilings.
  • We also lack an easy way to specify the metric of the space.
  • I have been wanting to introduce Schl=C3=A4ffi symbols in Lojban.
  • One thing that one must be careful of in Lojban i= s distinguishing between measures and objects. This comes up when one says in English "with dia= meter ____" or "with angle ____".=C2=A0 A diameter is a line= . So, =E2=80=9Cwith diameter L=E2=80=9D (where L is defined to be some line) is proper (and follows the definition). On the oth= er hand, =E2=80=9Cwith diameter 1 (unit)=E2=80=9D is abusive and wrong: it sho= uld be =E2=80=9Cwith diameter measuring 1 unit=E2=80=9D. Likewise for angles and their measures.= I try to be clear in English; Lojban needs to separate the two too. I propose that lujv= o or constructs with merli are employed for the measures (the accuracy terbri thereof is sort of annoying in some situations because in mathematical contexts, the accuracy is 1, but that co= uld probably be covered in the elliptical); the objects should be referenced by= the gismu.
  • =C2=A0How does one distinguish between a loop (closed, connected, simple (Jordan) curve), a sp= iral, a ring/annulus, a torus, an ellipse, a sphere, a helix, and a whole bunch o= f related concepts? We have words only for a few of them, with a lot of overl= ap.
  • =C2=A0Is there any implicit assumption that cukla/bolci-style roundness implies convexity and connectedness?=C2=A0 A simple, closed, connected (Jordan) curve (=3D loop?) is basically a circle, but is more generalized in the sense that it can be =E2=80=9Cvariab= ly curvy=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

General Problems:

1) gismu list terbri for material/composition. Examples: bolci, karda, tapla.

2) Many gismu improperly distinguish between volumes and surfaces.=C2=A0 Either we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be surfaces and reference their encompassed regions by lujvo with =E2=80=9Carea=E2=80=9D/canlu (example: bolci means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D, bolca=E2=80=99u means =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D), or we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be the encompassed volume and specify the boundary/surface by lujvo with perhaps korbi (example: <= i>bolci means =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D, bolkoi means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D)= . Although, one must note that the encompassed (interior) region can depend o= n interpret in some metrics; a small loop on the ground on Earth (an oblate ellipsoidal surface) may be determined to have a small area or a large one-= and even the shape of that area depends on this interpretation.=

=C2=A0

An Off-Topic Problem for Math in Lojban:

  • There is no general term for =E2=80=9Cevaluate= =E2=80=9D (as of, say, a function at a particular input value).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7beb91020fea5605069ea070--