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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 19:14:39 +0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-11-09 0:07 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>
>> * Saturday, 2014-11-08 at 11:40 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <
>> jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <
>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > In {mi nelci ko'a ne semau ko'e} isn't {ne semau} always expanded in=
to
>> > > {noi ke'a no'a semau ko'e}?
>> >
>> > It's more like: "noi ke'a zmadu ko'e lo ka no'a xi pa".
>>
>> Such rules involving {no'a} don't work for most BAI, though, so either
>> this is part of the definition of {mau} or (I think preferably) it's
>> just an obvious devaguing of {noi ke'a co'e se mau ko'e}.
>>
>
> I agree, yes. I'd say the latter. We can concoct contrived examples where
> "ko'a" is the property zmadu3 rather than the zmadu1 that ko'e is being
> compared with.
>

For me it's the only formalisation of {ne semau} that depends on the
semantics of {semau} of course.

There are rules for each BAI just like e.g. {ca} refers to the clause,
{semau} in the main clause refers with its implied zmadu1 to {lo nei} and
wth zmadu3 to {lo nu nei}.

I don't agree that in {mi nelci ko'a ne semau ko'e}
{ko'a} can ever refer to zmadu3. For me its always zmadu1.
If we say that it can be anything then BAI become useless because of
ambiguity.

Why not then say that
{mi nelci la betis semau la mark} can mean "I like Betty more than Mark"
where it in fact should have only one meaning "I like Betty more than Mark
does." ?


I dont want introduce any ambiguity to the language since even English
doesnt allow for that and since it would lead users to stop using BAI and
resorting to bulkier constructs that are not necessarily the same since {la
betis cu zmadu la mark lo ka se nelci mi} changes focus compared to the
original sentence which is not always desirable and you would say that
{fi'o} is just as ambiguous as BAI.

I'm also surprised that BPFK didnt formalize it despite discussions in tiki=
.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2014-11-09 0:07 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov=
 8, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Martin Bays <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mb=
ays@sdf.org" target=3D"_blank">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-=
width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex">* Saturday, 2014-11-08 at 11:40 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<span><br>
&gt; On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
leki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In {mi nelci ko&#39;a ne semau ko&#39;e} isn&#39;t {ne semau} alw=
ays expanded into<br>
&gt; &gt; {noi ke&#39;a no&#39;a semau ko&#39;e}?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s more like: &quot;noi ke&#39;a zmadu ko&#39;e lo ka no&#39;a x=
i pa&quot;.<br>
<br>
</span>Such rules involving {no&#39;a} don&#39;t work for most BAI, though,=
 so either<br>
this is part of the definition of {mau} or (I think preferably) it&#39;s<br=
>
just an obvious devaguing of {noi ke&#39;a co&#39;e se mau ko&#39;e}.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I agree=
, yes. I&#39;d say the latter. We can concoct contrived examples where &quo=
t;ko&#39;a&quot; is the property zmadu3 rather than the zmadu1 that ko&#39;=
e is being compared with.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For m=
e it&#39;s the only formalisation of {ne semau} that depends on the semanti=
cs of {semau} of course.</div><div><br></div><div>There are rules for each =
BAI just like e.g. {ca} refers to the clause, {semau} in the main clause re=
fers with its implied zmadu1 to {lo nei} and wth zmadu3 to {lo nu nei}.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t agree that in=C2=A0{mi nelci ko&#39;a ne =
semau ko&#39;e}</div><div>{ko&#39;a} can ever refer to zmadu3. For me its a=
lways zmadu1.</div><div>If we say that it can be anything then BAI become u=
seless because of ambiguity.</div><div><br></div><div>Why not then say that=
</div><div>{mi nelci la betis semau la mark} can mean &quot;I like Betty mo=
re than Mark&quot; where it in fact should have only one meaning &quot;I li=
ke Betty more than Mark does.&quot; ?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I dont want introduce any ambiguity to the language since even English d=
oesnt allow for that and since it would lead users to stop using BAI and re=
sorting to bulkier constructs that are not necessarily the same since {la b=
etis cu zmadu la mark lo ka se nelci mi} changes focus compared to the orig=
inal sentence which is not always desirable and you would say that {fi&#39;=
o} is just as ambiguous as BAI.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m also surpr=
ised that BPFK didnt formalize it despite discussions in tiki.<br></div></d=
iv></div></div>

<p></p>

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