Received: from mail-vc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:52969) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XoHyu-00050A-Hb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:24:07 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f185.google.com with SMTP id le20sf35092vcb.12 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+x995beQhW4Bq/pTz+lUF0Sx86ZBmIPj5zHSLSOK4lg=; b=BWCApkhzufNjJ1QZgEjzvvWZPmtfr5EeuPWLlbElss+Lgy6kj3O8NQzKHqUGc/UNbR 3AC0G5/IqvEOhPB6IbeW3BDTNaiwahwRAOjgwcEXI3meaH9Y2PDAOXiDd9ZZ7q3Rb00U wE5cWIkqr5ShCJih3n4PKSnb9FGVVfq/h1CLdpC85Kjzcb6k/wSDrEHtYuSybC3FAUbe J1Xzpay60wb2obz1VWptE2j8uul3yNmoUcBwPU3ZF7JyirRckC0Q2MBxKEac27CCJPIT j/IQu+25QEeuJGl965U+48wbsOT/OWlDpxc41iewdagI2fR5xqqKL+2gylcc3pRf5H2l RJlA== X-Received: by 10.140.17.69 with SMTP id 63mr51106qgc.10.1415737437444; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.46.102 with SMTP id j93ls2738661qga.30.gmail; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.110.2 with SMTP id t2mr32262998yhg.58.1415737437087; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x233.google.com (mail-qc0-x233.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u7si5052686qcz.3.2014.11.11.12.23.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233; Received: by mail-qc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i8so136874qcq.24 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.204.66 with SMTP id fl2mr50991279qcb.7.1415737436929; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.242.215 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:23:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:23:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2b2f80608ab05079b0f40 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2b2f80608ab05079b0f40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. Oh yeah, this is true for me. > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all > the time. xD > > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, from the CLL. I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy memory load. This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, deletions from them). The young bucks who are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea. That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of the language, it* appears *he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language. I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes. Curmudgeonly derision is not productive. I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right to have them. zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist. But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, do the work that had already been determined to be the next step. Don't jump at revolution. (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something that's not gone through the formal channels. --gejyspa On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: >> >> litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. >> > Well, that was easy ;-) > > Thanks! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2b2f80608ab05079b0f40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have final= ly gotten a chance to read this thread.=C2=A0 And while nobody asked, I wil= l add my two cents.

=C2=A0 I find myself pretty much in = agreement with Wuzzy, =C2=A0quoting lojbab:
=C2=A0> They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
= =C2=A0> fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad = hoc
=C2=A0> prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this is true for me.
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but ther= e are some people (like me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, no= t to change it all
the time. xD

<= div>=C2=A0I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (gettin= g no response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was = moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004= , learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned= lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital.=C2=A0 So I did, from= the CLL.=C2=A0 I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them.=C2= =A0 And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them.=C2=A0 At my age, it&= #39;s a heavy memory load.=C2=A0 This same kind of discussion goes on all t= ime with one of my other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they = have to reissue the dictionary every so often.=C2=A0 But the old-timers don= 't want to have to restudy lists that they already spent a long time me= morizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, deletions from them).=C2= =A0 The young bucks who are just starting out don't care, because they = are tabulae rasae anyhow =C2=A0 Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibil= ity aside.=C2=A0 So of course you are right to expect pushback from the old= timers about the idea.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That being sai= d, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now in the position = of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of the language, it= appears he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe = to make any changes simply because of that fact.=C2=A0 This despite the fac= t that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.=C2=A0 I don&= #39;t think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a youn= g whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. =C2=A0selpa'i= IS a major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinion= s at least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes.=C2=A0 C= urmudgeonly derision is not productive.=C2=A0 I say all this despite the fa= ct that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the lan= guage, but I don't deny his right to have them.

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedu= res are in place for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially sl= ow, are looked upon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actual= ly accomplishing them, speaks volumes about them, though.=C2=A0 So, it has = the appearance that jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your chan= ges to be fast-tracked.=C2=A0 Well, you can do what he did and form your ow= n language (since he cleared the way for you by getting the courts to agree= that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-) ).=C2=A0 It's happene= d before.=C2=A0 That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.=C2=A0 But = you want to stay within the bounds of lojban?=C2=A0 So, do the work that ha= d already been determined to be the next step.=C2=A0 Don't jump at revo= lution. =C2=A0(If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (an= d hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a ne= w gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything = for something that's not gone through the formal channels.
<= div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gej= yspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <= transfire@gmail.co= m> wrote:
= On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wro= te:

litru already has= that place, you don't have to add it.

Well= , that was easy ;-)

Thanks!

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c2b2f80608ab05079b0f40--