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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:52:10 -0500
From: Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
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ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku'i mi ja'a cilre fo lo selsku =
ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi ku (noi sarji ro lo re seldau)
.i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'i mi jinvi sai lo du'u sapselga'e fa lo du'u mu=
'i makau lo za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le banstika pruce poi zasti k=
u'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsnuti toi .u'i)

ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke lojbangirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni r=
itli pruce co'a masno .akti .i za'a so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. .iku'i=
nai ma'a ba facki lo du'u xukau lo nu xagyfarvi cu cumki
.i mi pacna lo nu le bangu cu jai cumki fai lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive ke=
i gi'enai selja'e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'u cu cliva
.i da'i zi'o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka se stika tezu'e lo s=
e nitcu be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo noi se stidi do nu p=
orpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co ganzu ri toi)

mu'o mi'e la durka=20


On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote:

>   Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to re=
ad this thread.  And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents.
>=20
>   I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy,  quoting lojbab:
> >  > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
> >  > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc
> >  > prescriptive change.
> > > Oh yeah, this is true for me.
> > > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me)
> > > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it al=
l
> > > the time. xD
>=20
>  I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no re=
sponse to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribun=
d), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learn=
ing that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban=
 instead, which appeared to be much more vital.  So I did, from the CLL.  I=
 learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them.  And yes, I don't w=
ant to have to relearn them.  At my age, it's a heavy memory load.  This sa=
me kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tourn=
ament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so =
often.  But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they al=
ready spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse=
, deletions from them).  The young bucks who are just starting out don't ca=
re, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow   Same goes with lojban, backward=
s compatibility aside.=20
 So of course you are right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the=
 idea.
>=20
>    That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be n=
ow in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of =
the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, an=
d is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact.  This despite =
the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.  I don't =
think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapp=
er who doesn't care about the language.  selpa'i IS a major user of the lan=
guage, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of bei=
ng given an audience as those of xorxes.  Curmudgeonly derision is not prod=
uctive.  I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the idea=
s that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right to have the=
m.
>=20
>  =20
>  zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, e=
ven if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not wor=
thy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks =
volumes about them, though.  So, it has the appearance that jsut like the l=
ojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked.  Well, you =
can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way for=
 you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-) =
).  It's happened before.  That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.  Bu=
t you want to stay within the bounds of lojban?  So, do the work that had a=
lready been determined to be the next step.  Don't jump at revolution.  (If=
 stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a nex=
t generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will relu=
ctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something that's not =
gone through the formal
 channels.
>=20
>                                     --gejyspa
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com (mailto:trans=
fire@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
> > > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it.
> > >=20
> >=20
> > Well, that was easy ;-)
> >=20
> > Thanks!
> >=20
> > --=20
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com).
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lo=
jban@googlegroups.com).
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go=
ogle Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l=
ojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com)=
.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com).
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--=20
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lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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                <div>ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku'i mi ja'=
a cilre fo lo selsku ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi ku (noi sarji ro lo r=
e seldau)</div><div>.i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'i mi jinvi sai lo du'u saps=
elga'e fa lo du'u mu'i makau lo za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le bansti=
ka pruce poi zasti ku'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsn=
uti toi .u'i)</div><div><br></div><div>ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke loj=
bangirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni ritli pruce co'a masno .akti .i za'a =
so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. .iku'inai ma'a ba facki lo du'u xukau lo n=
u xagyfarvi cu cumki</div><div>.i mi pacna lo nu le bangu cu jai cumki fai =
lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive kei gi'enai selja'e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'=
u cu cliva</div><div>.i da'i zi'o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka=
 se stika tezu'e lo se nitcu be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo=
 noi se stidi do nu porpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co ganzu ri to=
i)</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e la durka</div>
                <div></div>
                =20
                <p style=3D"color: #A0A0A8;">On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 =
at 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote:</p>
                <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;=
border-width:1px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
                    <span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp; Well, at the ri=
sk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read this thread.&nbs=
p; And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents.<div><br></div><div>&nbs=
p; I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, &nbsp;quoting lojbab:=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80=
);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">&gt; They choose to use Lojb=
an because it is DONE (even if not<br></span>&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:rgb=
(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">&gt; fully documente=
d). And they value our commitment against ad hoc<br></span>&nbsp;<span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">&gt; p=
rescriptive change.</span></div><div><blockquote><span style=3D"font-family=
:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Oh yeah, this is true for me.<br></span><=
span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Yeah, it may sou=
nd crazy to some, but there are some people (like me)<br></span><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">out there who actually sim=
ply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all<br></span><span style=3D"font-=
family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">the time. xD</span></blockquote></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;I learned Loglan in 1976 from the=
 books that existed then (getting no response to my letters from the Instit=
ute back then, I assumed it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered it,=
 post-internet inception in 2004, learning that I was going to have to rele=
arn everything anyway, I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much =
more vital.&nbsp; So I did, from the CLL.&nbsp; I learned all the gismu, al=
l their places, and use them.&nbsp; And yes, I don't want to have to relear=
n them.&nbsp; At my age, it's a heavy memory load.&nbsp; This same kind of =
discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scrab=
ble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.&nbsp=
; But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they already =
spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, dele=
tions from them).&nbsp; The young bucks who are just starting out don't car=
e, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow &nbsp; Same goes with lojban, back=
wards compatibility aside.&nbsp; So of course you are right to expect pushb=
ack from the oldtimers about the idea.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbs=
p;That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now =
in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of the=
 language, it<i> appears </i>he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan=
, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact.&nbsp; This=
 despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.&=
nbsp; I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a youn=
g whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. &nbsp;selpa'i IS a ma=
jor user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at lea=
st as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes.&nbsp; Curmudgeo=
nly derision is not productive.&nbsp; I say all this despite the fact that =
I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don=
't deny his right to have them.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><d=
iv>&nbsp;zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for cha=
nge, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as n=
ot worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, s=
peaks volumes about them, though.&nbsp; So, it has the appearance that jsut=
 like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked.&=
nbsp; Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cle=
ared the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not co=
pyrightable :-) ).&nbsp; It's happened before.&nbsp; That's why lojsk, gua\=
spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.&nbsp; But you want to stay within the bounds of lojb=
an?&nbsp; So, do the work that had already been determined to be the next s=
tep.&nbsp; Don't jump at revolution. &nbsp;(If stuff IS done formally, and =
we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go al=
ong with it), and/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but=
 I won't do anything for something that's not gone through the formal chann=
els.</div></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; --gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div><br><div>On Thu, Aug 7=
, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfire=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>On Thursday, August 7=
, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p d=
ir=3D"ltr">litru already has that place, you don't have to add it.</p></div=
></blockquote></span><div>Well, that was easy ;-)<br></div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks!</div></div><div><div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></span>
                =20
                =20
                =20
                =20
                </blockquote>
                =20
                <div>
                    <br>
                </div>
           =20

<p></p>

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