Received: from mail-wi0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]:53750) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XoS1F-0003ca-OX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:12 -0800 Received: by mail-wi0-f189.google.com with SMTP id n3sf220478wiv.6 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=c8GTF+73RvYzVP8EYng6ro+d0j4e0uGGc+Ea8/wVj7w=; b=uSVjRYLs8sO+Z5jPatFkoVZk+5Y6pVqUz+Kt8y87j9bOVa+QfgNiCianqofEZm4StK odSNVvlcoJfgjuGMYc2cH3FCOkFnihInXVY+hBd7cvzczAStvz8k3GuwLaBJEHg/lNiR Byjc64mh5e8zN6YgRXnxqvcHdfcpknHVFbhHtAN8uV1I9kCuldOu5KCuvOXsoY2CQjGR aSPLi6iVXsQKRkasA+L/a60cMOMUXguS3axZUHozb2SzBxI+9Z/pqfDlPYDCJgvTDhP4 4V4ed3txwvAZjjOidhMeyqDHtOi/5ljIIWOblkXN8G47aAhZfi54A0Vx8mkvcqQ/9Kgi hFZQ== X-Received: by 10.152.2.135 with SMTP id 7mr1902lau.19.1415776023112; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.161.203 with SMTP id xu11ls635687lab.90.gmail; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.37.37 with SMTP id v5mr10791laj.9.1415776021786; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com (mail-wi0-x22a.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si1004335wif.2.2014.11.11.23.07.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a; Received: by mail-wi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id r20so3922088wiv.5 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.235.135 with SMTP id um7mr18710117wjc.1.1415776021628; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.103.65 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2B3DF32F0DC74205BB007FA962D21D2D@gmail.com> References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <2B3DF32F0DC74205BB007FA962D21D2D@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:07:01 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update From: Gleki Arxokuna To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01419f9ad9ccff0507a40a10 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e01419f9ad9ccff0507a40a10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-11-12 2:52 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku'i mi ja'a cilre fo lo selsku > ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi ku (noi sarji ro lo re seldau) > .i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'i mi jinvi sai lo du'u sapselga'e fa lo du'u > mu'i makau lo za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le banstika pruce poi zasti > ku'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsnuti toi .u'i) > > ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke lojbangirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni > ritli pruce co'a masno .akti .i za'a so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. > .iku'inai ma'a ba facki lo du'u xukau lo nu xagyfarvi cu cumki > lo nu le kamni na akti na nibli lo du'u ei galfi le bangu lo mabla i la gejyspa cu klina cusku lo sedu'u gy na djica lo nu gy. zgana lo nu lo jai se morji be gy co'u smudra .i mi pacna lo nu le bangu cu jai cumki fai lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive > kei gi'enai selja'e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'u cu cliva > .i da'i zi'o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka se stika tezu'e lo > se nitcu be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo noi se stidi do nu > porpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co ganzu ri toi) > > mu'o mi'e la durka > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to > read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. > > I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. > > Oh yeah, this is true for me. > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all > the time. xD > > > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no > response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was > moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in > 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I > learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, > from the CLL. I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. > And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy > memory load. This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my > other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the > dictionary every so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to > restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add new > words to them (or much worse, deletions from them). The young bucks who > are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow > Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are > right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea. > > That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be > now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of > the language, it* appears *he finds it as much his baby as JCB did > Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. > This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the > language. I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a > young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a > major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at > least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes. > Curmudgeonly derision is not productive. I say all this despite the fact > that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but > I don't deny his right to have them. > > > zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, > even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not > worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, > speaks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut > like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. > Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared > the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not > copyrightable :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, > Ceqli, etc.exist. But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, > do the work that had already been determined to be the next step. Don't > jump at revolution. (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new > CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or > a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything > for something that's not gone through the formal channels. > > --gejyspa > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: > > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. > > Well, that was easy ;-) > > Thanks! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e01419f9ad9ccff0507a40a10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-11-12 2:52 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>= :
ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku&= #39;i mi ja'a cilre fo lo selsku ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi k= u (noi sarji ro lo re seldau)
.i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'= ;i mi jinvi sai lo du'u sapselga'e fa lo du'u mu'i makau lo= za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le banstika pruce poi zast= i ku'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsnuti toi .= u'i)

ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke lojb= angirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni ritli pruce co'a masno .akti .= i za'a so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. .iku'inai ma'a = ba facki lo du'u xukau lo nu xagyfarvi cu cumki
=
lo nu le kamni na akti na nibli lo du'u ei galfi le bang= u lo mabla=C2=A0
i la gejyspa cu klina cusku lo sedu'u gy na = djica lo nu gy. zgana lo nu lo jai se morji be gy co'u smudra

.i mi pacna lo nu le bangu c= u jai cumki fai lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive kei gi'enai selja'= e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'u cu cliva
.i da'i zi'= ;o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka se stika tezu'e lo se nitc= u be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo noi se stidi d= o nu porpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co ganzu ri toi)

mu'o mi'e la durka
=20

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at= 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote:

=C2=A0 Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chan= ce to read this thread.=C2=A0 And while nobody asked, I will add my two cen= ts.

=C2=A0 I find myself pretty much in agreement with W= uzzy, =C2=A0quoting lojbab:
=C2=A0&= gt; They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
=C2= =A0> fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc=
=C2=A0> prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this = is true for me.
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (lik= e me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all
= the time= . xD

=C2=A0I lear= ned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no response to= my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribund), and t= hen when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learning that = I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban instead,= which appeared to be much more vital.=C2=A0 So I did, from the CLL.=C2=A0 = I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them.=C2=A0 And yes, I d= on't want to have to relearn them.=C2=A0 At my age, it's a heavy me= mory load.=C2=A0 This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of = my other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue = the dictionary every so often.=C2=A0 But the old-timers don't want to h= ave to restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add= new words to them (or much worse, deletions from them).=C2=A0 The young bu= cks who are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasa= e anyhow =C2=A0 Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside.=C2=A0= So of course you are right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the= idea.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That being said, I do find it = kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite = his protestations of democratization of the language, it appears he = finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any chan= ges simply because of that fact.=C2=A0 This despite the fact that he self-a= dmittedly doesn't really use the language.=C2=A0 I don't think it&#= 39;s fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper= who doesn't care about the language. =C2=A0selpa'i IS a major user= of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as wo= rthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes.=C2=A0 Curmudgeonly deri= sion is not productive.=C2=A0 I say all this despite the fact that I don= 9;t like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don= 't deny his right to have them.

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place= for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked u= pon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing= them, speaks volumes about them, though.=C2=A0 So, it has the appearance t= hat jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-t= racked.=C2=A0 Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (sinc= e he cleared the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "logl= an" is not copyrightable :-) ).=C2=A0 It's happened before.=C2=A0 = That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.=C2=A0 But you want to stay= within the bounds of lojban?=C2=A0 So, do the work that had already been d= etermined to be the next step.=C2=A0 Don't jump at revolution. =C2=A0(I= f stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a ne= xt generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will= reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something th= at's not gone through the formal channels.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <t= ransfire@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la dur= ka wrote:

litru already has th= at place, you don't have to add it.

W= ell, that was easy ;-)

Thanks!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.go= ogle.com/d/topic/lojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 =20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--089e01419f9ad9ccff0507a40a10--