Received: from mail-ig0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:52562) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XoZkL-0003Xh-LL for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:16 -0800 Received: by mail-ig0-f189.google.com with SMTP id hn15sf491143igb.26 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Af8KeKf9yRuypGnsNnOPu9hsrUnLj1ilPtGN964mR60=; b=kVbLOIDzM7j5LvJ6DK4oEQiu2Z8xBrwfHlrR/Dv8/Me75/IwibnNjzovNTjMdiH1By JRu2PkHew7G/WnJ6IAaLyXKZabcCUjldNDvf603COxq6fLA/Dkd4oPDCnvVlBZhFM3XI O9YcrntGaQ3aoM7CTZjvubo7yMSjoVZXDF++ozW/XzwmLqcnZn1vVrSsNYElxpW+51/g IChqyYpUr4Y/tB4WMR7yiiBIiHH72TQ9r+bmtz+o36Hdaq3rCtdiar9OXyHH8nT7LAge 0bG0ZWWw5PwUua4Nq2MuPCPxjZYJfzeeDukG26k/emqwpkGe4XwFyOtKNupaMoh5lqVP PCxA== X-Received: by 10.182.29.136 with SMTP id k8mr15230obh.25.1415805727311; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.97.4 with SMTP id dw4ls1091550obb.26.gmail; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.33.162 with SMTP id s2mr5824214obi.17.1415805726692; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x22b.google.com (mail-qg0-x22b.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kb8si5582077qcb.1.2014.11.12.07.22.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b; Received: by mail-qg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f51so8947788qge.16 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.148.18 with SMTP id n18mr29972294qav.100.1415805726342; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.242.215 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2B3DF32F0DC74205BB007FA962D21D2D@gmail.com> References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <2B3DF32F0DC74205BB007FA962D21D2D@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:22:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0153838e63c59e0507aaf5b7 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e0153838e63c59e0507aaf5b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 doi durka mi ckire do lo nu milxe dragau zo morxirda'i noi juxre degji ve ciska zi'e ne mi ge'u ja'e tu'a zo mroxirma .i mi pu tavla fi lo bevri danlu poi ge ba'o jmive ginai selkra lo berti friko ni'o pe'u do ko fraxu mi lo nu na ciska bau la lojban .i mi pu ciska sevau lo prenu poi se nandu lo nu tcidu cei bu'a bau ly .i lo nu da bu'a cu narcu'i .i se'o lo nu mi bu'a cu xaksu lo dirba besna nejni .i lo nu go'i cu tolcu'i lo nu claxu lo kafxu'i zo'o --gejyspa On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Alex Burka wrote: > ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku'i mi ja'a cilre fo lo selsku > ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi ku (noi sarji ro lo re seldau) > .i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'i mi jinvi sai lo du'u sapselga'e fa lo du'u > mu'i makau lo za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le banstika pruce poi zasti > ku'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsnuti toi .u'i) > > ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke lojbangirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni > ritli pruce co'a masno .akti .i za'a so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. > .iku'inai ma'a ba facki lo du'u xukau lo nu xagyfarvi cu cumki > .i mi pacna lo nu le bangu cu jai cumki fai lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive > kei gi'enai selja'e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'u cu cliva > .i da'i zi'o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka se stika tezu'e lo > se nitcu be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo noi se stidi do nu > porpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co ganzu ri toi) > > mu'o mi'e la durka > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to > read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. > > I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. > > Oh yeah, this is true for me. > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all > the time. xD > > > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no > response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was > moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in > 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I > learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, > from the CLL. I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. > And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy > memory load. This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my > other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the > dictionary every so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to > restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add new > words to them (or much worse, deletions from them). The young bucks who > are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow > Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are > right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea. > > That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be > now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of > the language, it* appears *he finds it as much his baby as JCB did > Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. > This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the > language. I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a > young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a > major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at > least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes. > Curmudgeonly derision is not productive. I say all this despite the fact > that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but > I don't deny his right to have them. > > > zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, > even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not > worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, > speaks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut > like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. > Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared > the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not > copyrightable :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, > Ceqli, etc.exist. But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, > do the work that had already been determined to be the next step. Don't > jump at revolution. (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new > CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or > a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything > for something that's not gone through the formal channels. > > --gejyspa > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: > > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. > > Well, that was easy ;-) > > Thanks! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0153838e63c59e0507aaf5b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi durka mi ckire do lo nu milxe dragau zo morxirda'i= noi juxre degji ve ciska zi'e ne mi ge'u ja'e tu'a zo mrox= irma .i mi pu tavla fi lo bevri danlu poi ge ba'o jmive ginai selkra lo= berti friko=C2=A0

ni'o pe'u do ko fraxu mi lo n= u na ciska bau la lojban .i mi pu ciska sevau lo prenu poi se nandu lo nu t= cidu cei bu'a bau ly .i lo nu da bu'a cu narcu'i .i se'o lo= nu mi bu'a cu xaksu lo dirba besna nejni .i lo nu go'i cu tolcu= 9;i =C2=A0lo nu claxu lo kafxu'i zo'o

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Alex Burka <d= urka42@gmail.com> wrote:
ni'o mi nau cusku lo se jinvi be mi po'o .iku&= #39;i mi ja'a cilre fo lo selsku ne'i lo dei mroxirma si mrilinsi k= u (noi sarji ro lo re seldau)
.i mi tugni do so'o da .iku'= ;i mi jinvi sai lo du'u sapselga'e fa lo du'u mu'i makau lo= za'e "balningaugirzu" cu te smuni le banstika pruce poi zast= i ku'o lo tolbanzu (to sei cumki lo za'i tolbanzu cu tolsnuti toi .= u'i)

ni'o fau lo renopavomoi nanca ke lojb= angirzu nunpenmi ku lo bi'unai catni ritli pruce co'a masno .akti .= i za'a so'o da djica co cmibi'o lylygy. .iku'inai ma'a = ba facki lo du'u xukau lo nu xagyfarvi cu cumki
.i mi pacna l= o nu le bangu cu jai cumki fai lo ka xruti ce'u lo ka jmive kei gi'= enai selja'e lo nu so'i se bangu be ce'u cu cliva
.i = da'i zi'o badri lo nu la .lojban. ba na kakne lo ka se stika tezu&#= 39;e lo se nitcu be lo je'a pilno be ri .iku'i ja'a cumki fa lo= noi se stidi do nu porpi lo za'u bangu (to sa'u mi na djica co gan= zu ri toi)

mu'o mi'e la durka
=20

On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at= 3:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote:

=C2=A0 Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chan= ce to read this thread.=C2=A0 And while nobody asked, I will add my two cen= ts.

=C2=A0 I find myself pretty much in agreement with W= uzzy, =C2=A0quoting lojbab:
=C2=A0&= gt; They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
=C2= =A0> fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc=
=C2=A0> prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this = is true for me.
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (lik= e me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all
= the time= . xD

=C2=A0I lear= ned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no response to= my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribund), and t= hen when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learning that = I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban instead,= which appeared to be much more vital.=C2=A0 So I did, from the CLL.=C2=A0 = I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them.=C2=A0 And yes, I d= on't want to have to relearn them.=C2=A0 At my age, it's a heavy me= mory load.=C2=A0 This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of = my other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue = the dictionary every so often.=C2=A0 But the old-timers don't want to h= ave to restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add= new words to them (or much worse, deletions from them).=C2=A0 The young bu= cks who are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasa= e anyhow =C2=A0 Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside.=C2=A0= So of course you are right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the= idea.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That being said, I do find it = kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite = his protestations of democratization of the language, it appears he = finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any chan= ges simply because of that fact.=C2=A0 This despite the fact that he self-a= dmittedly doesn't really use the language.=C2=A0 I don't think it&#= 39;s fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper= who doesn't care about the language. =C2=A0selpa'i IS a major user= of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as wo= rthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes.=C2=A0 Curmudgeonly deri= sion is not productive.=C2=A0 I say all this despite the fact that I don= 9;t like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don= 't deny his right to have them.

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place= for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked u= pon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing= them, speaks volumes about them, though.=C2=A0 So, it has the appearance t= hat jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-t= racked.=C2=A0 Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (sinc= e he cleared the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "logl= an" is not copyrightable :-) ).=C2=A0 It's happened before.=C2=A0 = That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.=C2=A0 But you want to stay= within the bounds of lojban?=C2=A0 So, do the work that had already been d= etermined to be the next step.=C2=A0 Don't jump at revolution. =C2=A0(I= f stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a ne= xt generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will= reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something th= at's not gone through the formal channels.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <t= ransfire@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la dur= ka wrote:

litru already has th= at place, you don't have to add it.

W= ell, that was easy ;-)

Thanks!

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 =20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

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