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[216.39.63.100]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k9si1913196pdo.0.2014.11.12.07.50.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.100 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.100; Received: from [216.39.60.176] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 15:50:56 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.163] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 15:50:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 15:50:56 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 904449.88048.bm@omp1029.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77390 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2014 15:50:55 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: BvyWLZYVM1m9g..K6l8d06ieTqR._LXgysEjof3DtQ4n2oQ kkr8lhAZ6qpx_N8WlCkf.pen6b9KZk6ag0HMKvODtf5zELdav0YrlGiIFO8e 7IK1wIhuwzGnJhcPLU0ydGU6O7SvvR5uceRhlOplf3L0UphS0Y8eMqBSAD46 7lY..L4wqWrnzD9o2zor_2zBp5QL0g3A5QENFbLK6sstpRH_0Fhrk7lalwAO CHyQtJPmhSDORPTYesDND5csU_YhHi6vyXT8I5pWlQAC5yyKyWvE.gS3VQTq IBsm3CBjC6NwnIeVMrV72I5PJxse2qBHjbNhSlZdBTA_Y.4lonZbPfBW4ihb m5zI29K.gEiwd7l_HsGZ2masULmc6GK3c3EOXcWDBYJEoyV3.SlNUdYIGQuY Kj.y2mC7fLuLUqybzBaW9.P0TZEQdHJHnie5Eak7E_SEatj50.auEihDHvEr 0yKLBuWu7JPt9ovBuqPcCzLCu1H0eYmVhh82un93yKPoJOYeW9hYyQfzYlq5 G1LqtrrsjpsltmAZ7s.VaUWLtqzP7Ow1tlgbVRSOuzuUkw.Wbv0WJzu2aPYI wrQWoGdgNC6odbwy3FmwBvlJ9pqdroHq0OX_zqGxwmYmIOAuhy966xhBt9vY sFQ3YOsgrARDGD0a.Xizlo7jext0FwOiOTaG3cbOKSd08jVxYq1uUEH9SpeQ XzMrSmSH9uMVihb2pbXQ5ivhGCPNMH0bhbjH5SpPR Received: from [99.92.108.29] by web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:50:55 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,R2VlLCBzb3JyeSBhYm91dCBub3QgZ2V0dGluZyBiYWNrIHRvIHlvdSBpbiAxOTc2LiAgSSB0aG91Z2h0IHdlIGhhZCBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZSBiYWNrbG9nIGNsZWFyZWQgdXAgZmFpcmx5IGVhcmx5IG9uLCBidXQgc29tZSBwaWVjZXMgbXVzdCBoYXZlIGdvbmUgbWlzc2luZy4gIEkgZG91YnQgbG9qYmFiIGNvdWxkIGJlIGFzIHBvc3Nlc3NpdmUgYXMgSkNCLCB0aG91Z2ggZGVncmVlcyBwcm9iYWJseSBkb24ndCBtYXR0ZXIgYXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludC4gIEhvd2V2ZXIsIEpDQiB3YXMgd2lsbGluZyB0byBzY3JhcCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.733 References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:50:55 -0800 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="431184223-1231419662-1415807455=:55373" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.100 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- --431184223-1231419662-1415807455=:55373 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. I thought we had most of= the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have gone mis= sing. I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees probabl= y don't matter at this point. However, JCB was willing to scrap quite a bi= t for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab seems unwilli= ng to change even minor things for any purpose at all. Admittedly, JCB was= able to convince himself that the changes were his idea whereas lojbab doe= sn't ever think about (let alone in) the language and so does not have that= out. Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed his grip as it has d= one with other language creators, hence the impasse. On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: =20 Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read= this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. Oh yeah, this is true for me. >>Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) >>out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all >>the time. xD I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no resp= onse to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribund)= , and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learnin= g that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban i= nstead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, from the CLL. I l= earned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. And yes, I don't wan= t to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy memory load. This same= kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournam= ent Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so of= ten. But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they alre= ady spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, = deletions from them). The young bucks who are just starting out don't care= , because they are tabulae rasae anyhow Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are right to expect pushb= ack from the oldtimers about the idea. That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be now= in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of th= e language, itappears he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, and i= s loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. This despite the= fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language. I don't thi= nk it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper = who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a major user of the langua= ge, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of being = given an audience as those of xorxes. Curmudgeonly derision is not product= ive. I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the ideas t= hat selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right to have them. =20 zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, eve= n if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not worth= y by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks vo= lumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut like the loj= bab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. Well, you ca= n do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way for y= ou by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-) ).= It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist. But = you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, do the work that had alr= eady been determined to be the next step. Don't jump at revolution. (If s= tuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a next = generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will reluct= antly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something that's not gone through the formal channels. --gejyspa On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: >litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. >Well, that was easy ;-) > > > >Thanks! >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --431184223-1231419662-1415807455=:55373 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. =  I thought we had most of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but = some pieces must have gone missing.  I doubt lojbab could be as posses= sive as JCB, though degrees probably don't matter at this point.  Howe= ver, JCB was willing to scrap quite a bit for what he took to be a major im= provement, where as lojbab seems unwilling to change even minor things for = any purpose at all.  Admittedly, JCB was able to convince himself that= the changes were his idea whereas lojbab doesn't ever think about (let alo= ne in) the language and so does not have that out.  Unfortunately, thi= s indifference has not loosed his grip as it has done with other language c= reators, hence the impasse.


On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turni= ansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


  Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance t= o read this thread.  And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents.<= div>
  I find myself pretty much in agree= ment with Wuzzy,  quoting lojbab:
 > They choose to use = Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
 > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad ho= c
 > prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this is true for = me.
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like m= e)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to = change it all
the time. xD
<= div>
 I learned Loglan in 1976 from the b= ooks that existed then (getting no response to my letters from the Institut= e back then, I assumed it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, p= ost-internet inception in 2004, learning that I was going to have to relear= n everything anyway, I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much mo= re vital.  So I did, from the CLL.  I learned all the gismu, all = their places, and use them.  And yes, I don't want to have to relearn = them.  At my age, it's a heavy memory load.  This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scra= bble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.&nbs= p; But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they already= spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, del= etions from them).  The young bucks who are just starting out don't ca= re, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow   Same goes with lojban, bac= kwards compatibility aside.  So of course you are right to expect push= back from the oldtimers about the idea.

=
   That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab = seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democr= atization of the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby a= s JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that = fact.  This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.  I don't think it's fair that he dismisses s= elpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the langu= age.  selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and that position alone= makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given an audience as those = of xorxes.  Curmudgeonly derision is not productive.  I say all t= his despite the fact that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has f= or the language, but I don't deny his right to have them.

  
 zu'unainai= , The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, even if that p= ace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not worthy by the ba= lningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks volumes about= them, though.  So, it has the appearance that jsut like the lojbab-JC= B dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked.  Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way fo= r you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-)= ).  It's happened before.  That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc= .exist.  But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban?  So, d= o the work that had already been determined to be the next step.  Don'= t jump at revolution.  (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with = a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), a= nd/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do any= thing for something that's not gone through the formal channels.

          &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;   --gejyspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Thursday, A= ugust 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
litru already has that pl= ace, you don't have to add it.
Well, that was easy ;= -)

Thanks!
=
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