Received: from mail-ob0-f188.google.com ([209.85.214.188]:44947) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Xobgm-0004tz-1r for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:42 -0800 Received: by mail-ob0-f188.google.com with SMTP id wn1sf1758804obc.15 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=t0swpHJV/vxRkQ1RMw2zvF+Q/D25O95/a2zOThV/4Ro=; b=mujyufCkKi8BEx1OH0mBOpWDNTs9nIyXVrxDSzoNZqOx2HnSAcbFbc2LKqJW2/pAcw WW471DDZ060v/ziityW557vpgiRL4qBf0236bhcnYf7itEdrb8UFB3OVWOP5HL/CSwQT RVFS7FnQEE2dNNNv4PRhVQpNiA4uovBmulV3jcO7sOENT+kJjYrGjBhkIOPabgTt1d98 cT+BXORq5EcNWqmQP1sAYM+HhObTRAFbTYeezV9ByCAUbrO2aKisQHgI2ySssLrsDumo wC5UvBiPrY8NX3eboCs9RbpXJR0zWlDY/mAIaKZZoo2trOZzVJtc643ucoOOvy/Ik/yg fq5Q== X-Received: by 10.50.107.3 with SMTP id gy3mr485168igb.10.1415813194112; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.12.129 with SMTP id 1ls2175511iom.85.gmail; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.66.202 with SMTP id h10mr36983359pat.34.1415813193623; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x236.google.com (mail-qc0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u7si5704354qcz.3.2014.11.12.09.26.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236; Received: by mail-qc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id m20so9559442qcx.41 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.132.70 with SMTP id a6mr61841531qat.16.1415813193416; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.242.215 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:26:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 12:26:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2bc24764afc0507acb2ed X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2bc24764afc0507acb2ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 That's okay, John, I won't hold it against you. You will probably find my letter in a cardbox box in some storage close of TLI. About the only thing I remember how to say in Loglan75 is "lemi pingu ga blanu ze nigro" (~="lo mi pinji cu blanu joi xekri") Actually, that's not really true. I do remember many predicates (both primitives and complex), and most of the little words. I had used Loglan as the Ancient tongue in my D&D campaigns (theoretically switched since then to lojban, but that's only academic, since I only DMed once since learning lojban). Were Loglan 2 and 3 ever actually written? Could have used a good tutorial. Did JCB actually use the language himself? Was he fluent? --gejyspa On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:50 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. I thought we had most > of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have gone > missing. I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees > probably don't matter at this point. However, JCB was willing to scrap > quite a bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab > seems unwilling to change even minor things for any purpose at all. > Admittedly, JCB was able to convince himself that the changes were his idea > whereas lojbab doesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language and so > does not have that out. Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed > his grip as it has done with other language creators, hence the impasse. > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to > read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. > > I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. > > Oh yeah, this is true for me. > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all > the time. xD > > > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no > response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was > moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in > 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I > learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, > from the CLL. I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. > And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy > memory load. This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my > other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the > dictionary every so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to > restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add new > words to them (or much worse, deletions from them). The young bucks who > are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow > Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are > right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea. > > That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be > now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of > the language, it* appears *he finds it as much his baby as JCB did > Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. > This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the > language. I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a > young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a > major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at > least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes. > Curmudgeonly derision is not productive. I say all this despite the fact > that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but > I don't deny his right to have them. > > > zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, > even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not > worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, > speaks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut > like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. > Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared > the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not > copyrightable :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, > Ceqli, etc.exist. But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, > do the work that had already been determined to be the next step. Don't > jump at revolution. (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new > CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or > a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything > for something that's not gone through the formal channels. > > --gejyspa > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: > > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. > > Well, that was easy ;-) > > Thanks! > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2bc24764afc0507acb2ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 That's okay, John, I won't hold it against = you.=C2=A0 You will probably find my letter in a cardbox box in some storag= e close of TLI.=C2=A0 About the only thing I remember how to say in Loglan7= 5 is "lemi pingu ga blanu ze nigro" (~=3D"lo mi pinji cu bla= nu joi xekri") =C2=A0Actually, that's not really true. I do rememb= er many predicates (both primitives and complex), and most of the little wo= rds. =C2=A0 I had used Loglan as the Ancient tongue in my D&D campaigns= (theoretically switched since then to lojban, but that's only academic= , since I only DMed once since learning lojban).

=C2=A0 = Were Loglan 2 and 3 ever actually written?=C2=A0 Could have used a good tut= orial.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Did JCB actually use the langu= age himself?=C2=A0 Was he fluent?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:50 AM, 'John E Clif= ford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:<= br>
Gee, sorry about not getting b= ack to you in 1976.=C2=A0 I thought we had most of the backlog cleared up f= airly early on, but some pieces must have gone missing.=C2=A0 I doubt lojba= b could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees probably don't matter a= t this point.=C2=A0 However, JCB was willing to scrap quite a bit for what = he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab seems unwilling to chang= e even minor things for any purpose at all.=C2=A0 Admittedly, JCB was able = to convince himself that the changes were his idea whereas lojbab doesn'= ;t ever think about (let alone in) the language and so does not have that o= ut.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed his grip as it ha= s done with other language creators, hence the impasse.


On = Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wr= ote:


=C2=A0 We= ll, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read= this thread.=C2=A0 And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents.
=C2=A0 I find myself pretty much in agreement w= ith Wuzzy, =C2=A0quoting lojbab:
=C2=A0> They choose to use Lojban b= ecause it is DONE (even if not
=C2=A0> fu= lly documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc
=C2=A0> prescriptive change.
<= span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Oh yeah, this is= true for me.
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are som= e people (like me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojb= an, not to change it all
the time. xD

=C2=A0I learned Loglan in 1976 from= the books that existed then (getting no response to my letters from the In= stitute back then, I assumed it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered= it, post-internet inception in 2004, learning that I was going to have to = relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be m= uch more vital.=C2=A0 So I did, from the CLL.=C2=A0 I learned all the gismu= , all their places, and use them.=C2=A0 And yes, I don't want to have t= o relearn them.=C2=A0 At my age, it's a heavy memory load.=C2=A0 This s= ame kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scra= bble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.=C2= =A0 But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they al= ready spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse= , deletions from them).=C2=A0 The young bucks who are just starting out don= 't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow =C2=A0 Same goes with lo= jban, backwards compatibility aside.=C2=A0 So of course you are right to ex= pect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That being said, I do find it kind of ironic tha= t lojbab seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations = of democratization of the language, it appears he finds it as much h= is baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because= of that fact.=C2=A0 This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn= 9;t really use the language.=C2=A0 I don't think it's fair that he dis= misses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care= about the language. =C2=A0selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and= that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given a= n audience as those of xorxes.=C2=A0 Curmudgeonly derision is not productiv= e.=C2=A0 I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the = ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right= to have them.

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are= in place for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are= looked upon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually acco= mplishing them, speaks volumes about them, though.=C2=A0 So, it has the app= earance that jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to = be fast-tracked.=C2=A0 Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way fo= r you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrig= htable :-) ).=C2=A0 It's happened before.=C2=A0 That's why lojsk, g= ua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.=C2=A0 But you want to stay within the bounds of l= ojban?=C2=A0 So, do the work that had already been determined to be the nex= t step.=C2=A0 Don't jump at revolution. =C2=A0(If stuff IS done formall= y, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'= ;e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along w= ith it, but I won't do anything for something that's not gone throu= gh the formal channels.

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2= 014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
litru already has that place, you don't ha= ve to add it.
Well, that was easy ;-)

Thanks!
--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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--001a11c2bc24764afc0507acb2ed--