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[2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s7si723098vdv.2.2014.11.12.11.05.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dlacewell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id hy4so5849773vcb.14 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:05:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.60.65 with SMTP id f1mr9311309vdr.47.1415819145164; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.59.202 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update From: Dustin Lacewell To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: DLacewell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dlacewell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dlacewell@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1136651036be980507ae1508 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1136651036be980507ae1508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 With that said, how is the AGM progressing? Its been a few weeks now since it was announced. Are there any meeting minutes we can look at from all the productive happenings? On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:28 AM, And Rosta wrote: > Bob has just called the AGM and ensured that new blood will be able to > join LLG and get things moving again. I don't see any signs of > proprietoriality on his part, just the sort of investedness that many > others have too. > > And. > On 12 Nov 2014 15:50, "'John E Clifford' via lojban" < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. I thought we had most >> of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have gone >> missing. I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees >> probably don't matter at this point. However, JCB was willing to scrap >> quite a bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab >> seems unwilling to change even minor things for any purpose at all. >> Admittedly, JCB was able to convince himself that the changes were his idea >> whereas lojbab doesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language and so >> does not have that out. Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed >> his grip as it has done with other language creators, hence the impasse. >> >> >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to >> read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. >> >> I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: >> >> > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not >> > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc >> > prescriptive change. >> >> Oh yeah, this is true for me. >> Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) >> out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all >> the time. xD >> >> >> I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no >> response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was >> moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in >> 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I >> learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, >> from the CLL. I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. >> And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy >> memory load. This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my >> other passions, tournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the >> dictionary every so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to >> restudy lists that they already spent a long time memorizing, to add new >> words to them (or much worse, deletions from them). The young bucks who >> are just starting out don't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow >> Same goes with lojban, backwards compatibility aside. So of course you are >> right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea. >> >> That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be >> now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of >> the language, it* appears *he finds it as much his baby as JCB did >> Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. >> This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the >> language. I don't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a >> young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a >> major user of the language, and that position alone makes his opinions at >> least as worthy of being given an audience as those of xorxes. >> Curmudgeonly derision is not productive. I say all this despite the fact >> that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but >> I don't deny his right to have them. >> >> >> zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, >> even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not >> worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, >> speaks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut >> like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. >> Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared >> the way for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not >> copyrightable :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, >> Ceqli, etc.exist. But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, >> do the work that had already been determined to be the next step. Don't >> jump at revolution. (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new >> CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or >> a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything >> for something that's not gone through the formal channels. >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: >> >> On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: >> >> litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. >> >> Well, that was easy ;-) >> >> Thanks! >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1136651036be980507ae1508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With that said, how is the AGM progressing? Its been a few= weeks now since it was announced. Are there any meeting minutes we can loo= k at from all the productive happenings?
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:28 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob has just called the AGM and ensured that new blood wi= ll be able to join LLG and get things moving again. I don't see any sig= ns of proprietoriality on his part, just the sort of investedness that many= others have too.

And.

On 12 Nov 2014 15:50, "'John E Clifford= ' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Gee, sorry about not getting bac= k to you in 1976.=C2=A0 I thought we had most of the backlog cleared up fai= rly early on, but some pieces must have gone missing.=C2=A0 I doubt lojbab = could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees probably don't matter at = this point.=C2=A0 However, JCB was willing to scrap quite a bit for what he= took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab seems unwilling to change = even minor things for any purpose at all.=C2=A0 Admittedly, JCB was able to= convince himself that the changes were his idea whereas lojbab doesn't= ever think about (let alone in) the language and so does not have that out= .=C2=A0 Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed his grip as it has = done with other language creators, hence the impasse.

On Tuesday, November 11, 201= 4 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=

=C2=A0 Well, at the risk of nu mor= xirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read this thread.=C2=A0 And w= hile nobody asked, I will add my two cents.

=C2=A0 I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, =C2=A0quoting = lojbab:
=C2=A0> They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even i= f not
=C2=A0> fully documented). And they v= alue our commitment against ad hoc
=C2=A0> = prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this is true for me.
Yea= h, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it allthe time. xD

=C2=A0I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed the= n (getting no response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assume= d it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inceptio= n in 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, = I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital.=C2=A0 So I = did, from the CLL.=C2=A0 I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use= them.=C2=A0 And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them.=C2=A0 At my= age, it's a heavy memory load.=C2=A0 This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scra= bble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.=C2= =A0 But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they al= ready spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse= , deletions from them).=C2=A0 The young bucks who are just starting out don= 't care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow =C2=A0 Same goes with lo= jban, backwards compatibility aside.=C2=A0 So of course you are right to ex= pect pushback from the oldtimers about the idea.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0That being said, I do find it kind of ironic tha= t lojbab seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations = of democratization of the language, it appears he finds it as much h= is baby as JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because= of that fact.=C2=A0 This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn= 9;t really use the language.=C2=A0 I don't think it's fair that he dis= misses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care= about the language. =C2=A0selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and= that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given a= n audience as those of xorxes.=C2=A0 Curmudgeonly derision is not productiv= e.=C2=A0 I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the = ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right= to have them.

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are= in place for change, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are= looked upon as not worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually acco= mplishing them, speaks volumes about them, though.=C2=A0 So, it has the app= earance that jsut like the lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to = be fast-tracked.=C2=A0 Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way fo= r you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrig= htable :-) ).=C2=A0 It's happened before.=C2=A0 That's why lojsk, g= ua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.=C2=A0 But you want to stay within the bounds of l= ojban?=C2=A0 So, do the work that had already been determined to be the nex= t step.=C2=A0 Don't jump at revolution. =C2=A0(If stuff IS done formall= y, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'= ;e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along w= ith it, but I won't do anything for something that's not gone throu= gh the formal channels.

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Thu, Aug 7, 2= 014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
litru already has that place, you don't ha= ve to add it.
Well, that was easy ;-)

Thanks!
--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--
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