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[2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b3si5757456qcq.2.2014.11.12.11.09.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b; Received: by mail-qc0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id m20so9841304qcx.2 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.224.66.70 with SMTP id m6mr64674040qai.45.1415819393291; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [2607:f470:6:400d:3037:9335:100::] ([2607:f470:6:400d:2499:540d:b0ec:e4f4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id q90sm21723996qgd.4.2014.11.12.11.09.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:09:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:09:50 -0500 From: Alex Burka To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5463b07e_18be6bc6_13b" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --5463b07e_18be6bc6_13b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It's been one week since it was called to order, and there has been no busi= ness as of yet.=20 On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote: > With that said, how is the AGM progressing? Its been a few weeks now sinc= e it was announced. Are there any meeting minutes we can look at from all t= he productive happenings? >=20 > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:28 AM, And Rosta wrote: > > Bob has just called the AGM and ensured that new blood will be able to = join LLG and get things moving again. I don't see any signs of proprietoria= lity on his part, just the sort of investedness that many others have too.= =20 > > And. > > On 12 Nov 2014 15:50, "'John E Clifford' via lojban" wrote: > > > Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. I thought we had m= ost of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have go= ne missing. I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees p= robably don't matter at this point. However, JCB was willing to scrap quit= e a bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab seems u= nwilling to change even minor things for any purpose at all. Admittedly, J= CB was able to convince himself that the changes were his idea whereas lojb= ab doesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language and so does not hav= e that out. Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed his grip as it= has done with other language creators, hence the impasse.=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance t= o read this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. > > >=20 > > > I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > > > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > > > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > > > > prescriptive change. > > > > > Oh yeah, this is true for me. > > > > > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like= me) > > > > > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change i= t all > > > > > the time. xD > > >=20 > > > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting n= o response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was mor= ibund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, l= earning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lo= jban instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, from the CLL= . I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. And yes, I don= 't want to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy memory load. Thi= s same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, t= ournament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every= so often. But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that the= y already spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much w= orse, deletions from them). The young bucks who are just starting out don'= t care, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow Same goes with lojban, back= wards compatibility asi de. So of course you are right to expect pushback from the oldtimers about= the idea. > > >=20 > > > That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to = be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization= of the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan= , and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. This desp= ite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language. I do= n't think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippers= napper who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a major user of the= language, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of= being given an audience as those of xorxes. Curmudgeonly derision is not = productive. I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the = ideas that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right to have= them. > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for chang= e, even if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not= worthy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, spe= aks volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut like t= he lojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. Well, = you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way= for you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable = :-) ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist.= But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, do the work that h= ad already been determined to be the next step. Don't jump at revolution. = (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a= next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will = reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something that's = not gone through the fo rmal channels. > > >=20 > > > --gejyspa > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: > > > > > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. > > > >=20 > > > > Well, that was easy ;-) > > > >=20 > > > > Thanks! > > > > --=20 > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "lojban" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, s= end an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailt= o:lojban@googlegroups.com). > > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "lojban" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com). > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:= lojban@googlegroups.com). > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "lojban" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com). > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:= lojban@googlegroups.com). > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the = Google Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic= /lojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe. > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to loj= ban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m). > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lo= jban@googlegroups.com). > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go= ogle Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l= ojban/h6yQDGV5lQw/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com)= . > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojb= an@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --5463b07e_18be6bc6_13b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
It's been one week since it was called to order, and th= ere has been no business as of yet.
=20

On Wednesday, November 12, 201= 4 at 2:05 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote:

With that said, how is= the AGM progressing? Its been a few weeks now since it was announced. Are = there any meeting minutes we can look at from all the productive happenings= ?

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:28 AM, And Rosta <and.r= osta@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob has just called the AGM and ensured that new blood will be a= ble to join LLG and get things moving again. I don't see any signs of propr= ietoriality on his part, just the sort of investedness that many others hav= e too.

And.

On 12 Nov 2014 15:50, "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com= > wrote:
Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976.  I thought we had= most of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have = gone missing.  I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though de= grees probably don't matter at this point.  However, JCB was willing t= o scrap quite a bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lo= jbab seems unwilling to change even minor things for any purpose at all.&nb= sp; Admittedly, JCB was able to convince himself that the changes were his = idea whereas lojbab doesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language an= d so does not have that out.  Unfortunately, this indifference has not= loosed his grip as it has done with other language creators, hence the imp= asse.


On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:2= 3 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

<= br>
  Well, at the risk of nu morxirda= 'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read this thread.  And while nobo= dy asked, I will add my two cents.

 = I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy,  quoting lojbab:
&= nbsp;> They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not
 > fully documented). And they value our = commitment against ad hoc
 > prescript= ive change.
Oh yeah, this is true for me.
Yeah, it may= sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me)
out the= re who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all
t= he time. xD

<= div> I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (gettin= g no response to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was = moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004= , learning that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned= lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vital.  So I did, from= the CLL.  I learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them.&nb= sp; And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them.  At my age, it's a = heavy memory load.  This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scra= bble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.&nbs= p; But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they already= spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, del= etions from them).  The young bucks who are just starting out don't ca= re, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow   Same goes with lojban, bac= kwards compatibility aside.  So of course you are right to expect push= back from the oldtimers about the idea.

=
   That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab = seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democr= atization of the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby a= s JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that = fact.  This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.  I don't think it's fair that he dismisses s= elpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the langu= age.  selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and that position alone= makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given an audience as those = of xorxes.  Curmudgeonly derision is not productive.  I say all t= his despite the fact that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has f= or the language, but I don't deny his right to have them.

  
 zu'unainai= , The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, even if that p= ace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not worthy by the ba= lningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks volumes about= them, though.  So, it has the appearance that jsut like the lojbab-JC= B dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked.  Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way fo= r you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-)= ).  It's happened before.  That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc= .exist.  But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban?  So, d= o the work that had already been determined to be the next step.  Don'= t jump at revolution.  (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with = a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), a= nd/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do any= thing for something that's not gone through the formal channels.

          &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;   --gejyspa

On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 = AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
litru al= ready has that place, you don't have to add it.
Well= , that was easy ;-)

<= div>Thanks!
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=20 =20 =20 =20 =20

=20

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