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[98.138.91.159]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id be1si1460646igb.3.2014.11.12.11.53.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.159 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.159; Received: from [98.138.100.112] by nm29.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 19:53:28 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.124] by tm103.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 19:53:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2014 19:53:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 577747.2706.bm@smtp203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 3sCquV4VM1m26KC7024K741EGAwmnRr9tIc.bNiIbSHcaAf XXjAcil9wwm2rGZ9NcHHjoU.I06KGXU10whPCnYR_G9r39PlxG3ECPvb6YwW f_NqoojAZjzAYgElSGsCK5N40NAWwMl3abLHz7eVjYd91b9x9_gf9o7AwABd 5Galo4A6p5vQzGhPh0kvlO643eERAJJUYuFHY6ONhhCD2vO.6XkvG4qYBgGS lbeY7jn0poxTNiCaZ6aMj0o2wW08YwEH9qg0svwzm.0TmQ.9bpn.QdVv0a1V qlMIoUlzA98z0n9PV4FCPRzR3jRr4Y9SIrL6fnc8KI7F55S7mJdm77Qh.AXQ YXA8i.4BGa6BPN2QEwQVye3mCd1zkbALkV6HDbU9FEk2q2F0xImS8gAb1ctu equfcgRLBlJKCQxJhlLzI5J40sRPZx0nzGsodCKK3hD_XvN.md9e0S8BNJVF eKoUor2vtPSm2rhWMezihI0sABj8Dh_HasUbSM.1ghYmE5cIx5Ac.DMtvC6U 3g2PXQ3yqsegZy8.dwKBgk7ShfjX4DBL92Cs9giT_B3KSWAktW9xxQ3Qxm4c BDUx3oe.fiIfAScc1K5pJEkjZ_X9EFPF58Dz_e2ty_FD_3I2Jo8UVXmkFf0f 0ReaqhB7jNDfpiuGTTHggHpoXmVOFxHdotR2xHC42gJnpJTMWRxte_GbkYTR wO7pqG4qjx69cB1gVRw-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update References: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de> <1792af9d-711b-4a28-a472-8c1cbaf928de@googlegroups.com> <1415807455.55373.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E4C10886-40B0-41E1-AF3D-70CA7B3CCC18 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 13:53:31 -0600 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.159 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: "John E. Clifford" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-E4C10886-40B0-41E1-AF3D-70CA7B3CCC18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I doubt they will turn up. I and at least two other people went through al= l those boxes, alphabetized them and checked that replies were sent to ques= tions. =20 JCB talked Loglan a lot when I was around ( and several others report the s= ame) but that was all before the great morphological revolution. I don't k= now about after that. As to how fluent he was,I can't say, since I could n= ot keep up with him. I assume whatever he said meant what he intended by f= iat. The textbooks never got beyond drafts, very primitive programmed texts of v= ery primitive parts, while I was there (1984). Sent from my iPad On Nov 12, 2014, at 11:26, Michael Turniansky wrote= : > That's okay, John, I won't hold it against you. You will probably find= my letter in a cardbox box in some storage close of TLI. About the only t= hing I remember how to say in Loglan75 is "lemi pingu ga blanu ze nigro" (~= =3D"lo mi pinji cu blanu joi xekri") Actually, that's not really true. I d= o remember many predicates (both primitives and complex), and most of the l= ittle words. I had used Loglan as the Ancient tongue in my D&D campaigns = (theoretically switched since then to lojban, but that's only academic, sin= ce I only DMed once since learning lojban). >=20 > Were Loglan 2 and 3 ever actually written? Could have used a good tuto= rial. >=20 > Did JCB actually use the language himself? Was he fluent? >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:50 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: > Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976. I thought we had most = of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have gone m= issing. I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though degrees proba= bly don't matter at this point. However, JCB was willing to scrap quite a = bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lojbab seems unwil= ling to change even minor things for any purpose at all. Admittedly, JCB w= as able to convince himself that the changes were his idea whereas lojbab d= oesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language and so does not have th= at out. Unfortunately, this indifference has not loosed his grip as it has= done with other language creators, hence the impasse. >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: >=20 >=20 > Well, at the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to re= ad this thread. And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents. >=20 > I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, quoting lojbab: > > They choose to use Lojban because it is DONE (even if not > > fully documented). And they value our commitment against ad hoc > > prescriptive change. > Oh yeah, this is true for me. > Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (like me) > out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to change it all > the time. xD >=20 > I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books that existed then (getting no re= sponse to my letters from the Institute back then, I assumed it was moribun= d), and then when I rediscovered it, post-internet inception in 2004, learn= ing that I was going to have to relearn everything anyway, I learned lojban= instead, which appeared to be much more vital. So I did, from the CLL. I= learned all the gismu, all their places, and use them. And yes, I don't w= ant to have to relearn them. At my age, it's a heavy memory load. This sa= me kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tourn= ament Scrabble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so = often. But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they al= ready spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse= , deletions from them). The young bucks who are just starting out don't ca= re, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow Same goes with lojban, backward= s compatibility aside. So of course you are right to expect pushback from = the oldtimers about the idea. >=20 > That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab seems to be n= ow in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democratization of = the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby as JCB did Loglan, an= d is loathe to make any changes simply because of that fact. This despite = the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language. I don't = think it's fair that he dismisses selpa'i as basically a young whippersnapp= er who doesn't care about the language. selpa'i IS a major user of the lan= guage, and that position alone makes his opinions at least as worthy of bei= ng given an audience as those of xorxes. Curmudgeonly derision is not prod= uctive. I say all this despite the fact that I don't like many of the idea= s that selpa'i has for the language, but I don't deny his right to have the= m. >=20 > =20 > zu'unainai, The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, e= ven if that pace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not wor= thy by the balningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks = volumes about them, though. So, it has the appearance that jsut like the l= ojbab-JCB dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked. Well, you = can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way for= you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-) = ). It's happened before. That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc.exist. Bu= t you want to stay within the bounds of lojban? So, do the work that had a= lready been determined to be the next step. Don't jump at revolution. (If= stuff IS done formally, and we end up with a new CLL, (and hopefully a nex= t generation jbofi'e to go along with it), and/or a new gimste, I will relu= ctantly go along with it, but I won't do anything for something that's not = gone through the formal channels. >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS wrote: > On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 AM UTC-4, la durka wrote: > litru already has that place, you don't have to add it. > Well, that was easy ;-) >=20 > Thanks! > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --Apple-Mail-E4C10886-40B0-41E1-AF3D-70CA7B3CCC18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
I doubt they will turn up= .  I and at least two other people went through all those boxes, alpha= betized them and checked that replies were sent to questions.  
<= div>JCB talked Loglan a lot when I was around ( and several others report t= he same) but that was all before the great morphological revolution.  = I don't know about after that.  As to how fluent he was,I can't say, s= ince I could not keep up with him.  I assume whatever he said meant wh= at he intended by fiat.
The textbooks never got beyond drafts, ve= ry primitive programmed texts of very primitive parts, while I was there (1= 984).

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 12, 2014, at 11:26, Mic= hael Turniansky <mturniansky@gm= ail.com> wrote:

  That's okay, John, I won't hold it against you.&= nbsp; You will probably find my letter in a cardbox box in some storage clo= se of TLI.  About the only thing I remember how to say in Loglan75 is = "lemi pingu ga blanu ze nigro" (~=3D"lo mi pinji cu blanu joi xekri")  = ;Actually, that's not really true. I do remember many predicates (both prim= itives and complex), and most of the little words.   I had used Loglan= as the Ancient tongue in my D&D campaigns (theoretically switched sinc= e then to lojban, but that's only academic, since I only DMed once since le= arning lojban).

  Were Loglan 2 and 3 ever actually= written?  Could have used a good tutorial.

&= nbsp;  Did JCB actually use the language himself?  Was he fluent?=

          --gejyspa

On Wed, No= v 12, 2014 at 10:50 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <= lojban@googleg= roups.com> wrote:
Gee, sorry about not getting back to you in 1976.  I thought we had= most of the backlog cleared up fairly early on, but some pieces must have = gone missing.  I doubt lojbab could be as possessive as JCB, though de= grees probably don't matter at this point.  However, JCB was willing t= o scrap quite a bit for what he took to be a major improvement, where as lo= jbab seems unwilling to change even minor things for any purpose at all.&nb= sp; Admittedly, JCB was able to convince himself that the changes were his = idea whereas lojbab doesn't ever think about (let alone in) the language an= d so does not have that out.  Unfortunately, this indifference has not= loosed his grip as it has done with other language creators, hence the imp= asse.


On Tuesday= , November 11, 2014 2:23 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


  Well, at = the risk of nu morxirda'i,I have finally gotten a chance to read this threa= d.  And while nobody asked, I will add my two cents.

  I find myself pretty much in agreement with Wuzzy, =  quoting lojbab:
 > They choose to use Lojban because it i= s DONE (even if not
 > fully documente= d). And they value our commitment against ad hoc
&= nbsp;> prescriptive change.
Oh yeah, this is true for me.=
Yeah, it may sound crazy to some, but there are some people (lik= e me)
out there who actually simply want to USE Lojban, not to ch= ange it all
the time. xD
 I learned Loglan in 1976 from the books th= at existed then (getting no response to my letters from the Institute back = then, I assumed it was moribund), and then when I rediscovered it, post-int= ernet inception in 2004, learning that I was going to have to relearn every= thing anyway, I learned lojban instead, which appeared to be much more vita= l.  So I did, from the CLL.  I learned all the gismu, all their p= laces, and use them.  And yes, I don't want to have to relearn them.&n= bsp; At my age, it's a heavy memory load.  This same kind of discussion goes on all time with one of my other passions, tournament Scra= bble. Of necessity, they have to reissue the dictionary every so often.&nbs= p; But the old-timers don't want to have to restudy lists that they already= spent a long time memorizing, to add new words to them (or much worse, del= etions from them).  The young bucks who are just starting out don't ca= re, because they are tabulae rasae anyhow   Same goes with lojban, bac= kwards compatibility aside.  So of course you are right to expect push= back from the oldtimers about the idea.

=
   That being said, I do find it kind of ironic that lojbab = seems to be now in the position of JCB, despite his protestations of democr= atization of the language, it appears he finds it as much his baby a= s JCB did Loglan, and is loathe to make any changes simply because of that = fact.  This despite the fact that he self-admittedly doesn't really use the language.  I don't think it's fair that he dismisses s= elpa'i as basically a young whippersnapper who doesn't care about the langu= age.  selpa'i IS a major user of the language, and that position alone= makes his opinions at least as worthy of being given an audience as those = of xorxes.  Curmudgeonly derision is not productive.  I say all t= his despite the fact that I don't like many of the ideas that selpa'i has f= or the language, but I don't deny his right to have them.

  
 zu'unainai= , The fact that whatever procedures are in place for change, even if that p= ace of change seems glacially slow, are looked upon as not worthy by the ba= lningau crowd, instead of actually accomplishing them, speaks volumes about= them, though.  So, it has the appearance that jsut like the lojbab-JC= B dynamic, you want to your changes to be fast-tracked.  Well, you can do what he did and form your own language (since he cleared the way fo= r you by getting the courts to agree that "loglan" is not copyrightable :-)= ).  It's happened before.  That's why lojsk, gua\spi, Ceqli, etc= .exist.  But you want to stay within the bounds of lojban?  So, d= o the work that had already been determined to be the next step.  Don'= t jump at revolution.  (If stuff IS done formally, and we end up with = a new CLL, (and hopefully a next generation jbofi'e to go along with it), a= nd/or a new gimste, I will reluctantly go along with it, but I won't do any= thing for something that's not gone through the formal channels.

          &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;   --gejyspa

On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 10:29 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:36:47 = AM UTC-4, la durka wrote:
litru al= ready has that place, you don't have to add it.
Well= , that was easy ;-)

<= div>Thanks!
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