Received: from mail-wg0-f59.google.com ([74.125.82.59]:61437) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Xp3qN-0008Jy-Kx for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:29 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f59.google.com with SMTP id y10sf1244647wgg.4 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=x0y6Arz8dW+QuYzGlA2FYHMmpolsmuNNYMMloXsT/H0=; b=oG/M8Lv7wfZ1ebN5sr144nxGGAdswIh49BKgMrLWNsovsCi0g/ox1uuHa2lobnyUbF 4Q5iBK16NPsmP9gZ+I3ZzkZlvAkU8uj0WRYChdistcO6yeRnYkKUkp7kTY+ZTJPLCWtq ezJcrfeC5W3PhvEmwl76iA67myiUTWp+LvKlpQ8xkyHl5Fwb1+BxhZdJp6AEp9tEtC3b XSijdhM4Lg74I5NMnVtpYk8GjAXqCqyxzwz1zKCrwlf4VMbQ1LygBupMDv7q+1q/clDT CjAdtYKkeCSlCeYwGUd2vSPSPZhOXWCs37lFznMKK7kSW5gRb7NRGNMueqsCUkh899jj eRNg== X-Received: by 10.180.77.227 with SMTP id v3mr16097wiw.11.1415921420890; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.101.98 with SMTP id ff2ls234203wib.41.canary; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.76.168 with SMTP id l8mr351952wiw.1.1415921420009; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com. [2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sg7si1061996lbb.1.2014.11.13.15.30.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::233; Received: by mail-la0-x233.google.com with SMTP id q1so14254885lam.10 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.57.227 with SMTP id l3mr5039045lbq.68.1415921419883; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.70.111 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20141113021901.GM15728@gonzales> References: <20141109154145.GC8588@gonzales> <20141109161417.GE8588@gonzales> <20141109192217.GH8588@gonzales> <20141109215830.GB30874@gonzales> <20141112033820.GD15728@gonzales> <20141113021901.GM15728@gonzales> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 20:30:19 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11345a004318de0507c5e592 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11345a004318de0507c5e592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > > Yes. So the kind-based translation falls, incorrectly, on the first side > of the dividing line you drew above - it allows for, and appears to > involve, two goings shopping for each hungering (ignoring that > pragmatics might, in this particular case, lead us to assume that > they're equal). > I don't think in the kind-reading there are any other goings shopping other than the one kind, so there are no two that could be equal or unequal. Another point against the quantifier reading is that if you change ".e ba bo" to "na .a ba bo", then we would seem to need to change "su'o" to "ro" in the quantified expansion: "ca ro nu mi xagji kei mi klama lo zarci na .a ba bo lo zdani" -> "ca ro nu mi xagji kei ro da poi nu mi klama lo zarci zo'u ga nai da fasnu gi ba da mi klama lo zdani" or something like that, whereas with the kind-reading you use the same expansion "ca ro nu mi xagji kei ko'a goi lo nu mi klama lo zarci zo'u ga nai ko'a fasnu gi ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani". I don't see how to fix this, if the {je} approach doesn't work. > I'm not opposed to giving "broda je brode" a different meaning than "broda gi'e brode". Technically "broda je brode" is an atomic predicate in FOPL terms. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11345a004318de0507c5e592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wr= ote:

Yes. So the kind-based translation falls, incorrectly, on the first = side
of the dividing line you drew above - it allows for, and appears to
involve, two goings shopping for each hungering (ignoring that
pragmatics might, in this particular case, lead us to assume that
they're equal).

I don't think i= n the kind-reading there are any other goings shopping other than the one k= ind, so there are no two that could be equal or unequal.

Another point against the quantifier reading is that if you change &= quot;.e ba bo" to "na .a ba bo", then we would seem to need = to change "su'o" to "ro" in the quantified expansio= n: "ca ro nu mi xagji kei mi klama lo zarci na .a ba bo lo zdani"= -> "ca ro nu mi xagji kei ro da poi nu mi klama lo zarci zo'u = ga nai da fasnu gi ba da mi klama lo zdani" or something like that, wh= ereas with the kind-reading you use the same expansion "ca ro nu mi xa= gji kei ko'a goi lo nu mi klama lo zarci zo'u ga nai ko'a fasnu= gi ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani".=C2=A0

I don't see how to fix this, if the {je} approach doesn't work.
=

I'm not opposed to giving "broda = je brode" a different meaning than "broda gi'e brode". T= echnically "broda je brode" is an atomic predicate in FOPL terms.=
=C2=A0
mu'o mi'e xorxes

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