Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 06:46:27 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] ti'enai
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On Saturday, April 19, 2014 9:48:33 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>>
>> The scale of {ba'a} always refers to an experience.
>> Either in the expected future, the present or the past.
>>
>
> The future/present/past of the ba'a scale is the time when the sppeaker 
> gets the evidence for what they're saying, not the time when whatever it is 
> they are talking about happens.  
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials
>
> So it is possible to use "ba'a" to describe past events in which the 
> speaker did not participate (as in "I expect you had a good time at the 
> party yeaterday", I don't have confirmation yet, but I expect you will be 
> confirming it) or "ba'a nai" to talk about something that will happen in 
> the future ("I remember he will be leaving soon"). "ba'a cu'i" can also be 
> used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they speak, not 
> only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they are 
> describing. 
>
>
>> {ti'e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly
>> with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.
>> {ti'enai} then implies "grounded" knowledge pe'i.
>> So (pe'i) it would be reasonable to say {ti'enai li pa li pa te sumji li 
>> re},
>> whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba'anai} sounds weird.
>
>
> Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with "ba'a nai" because presumably 
> the speaker knows how to add one plus one and doesn't need to rely on 
> memory to know it's two, but then someone may say "ba'a nai li no sinso li 
> pai" because they remember it from having studied it even though they have 
> no other evidence that that is the case.
>
> "ti'e nai" would mean "first hand knowledge" and "ba'a cu'i" "knowledge 
> that I'm getting right now", so sometimes they may both apply and sometimes 
> only one of them, or neither.
>

Could you show an example where this ti'enai would be useful? 

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Saturday, April 19, 2014 9:48:33 PM UTC+4, xorx=
es wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-m=
ailto=3D"fK3IbEVWC80J" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true=
;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">m...@v4hn.de</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div>
The scale of {ba'a} always refers to an experience.<br>
Either in the expected future, the present or the past.<br></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>The future/present/past of the ba'a scale is the time when=
 the sppeaker gets the evidence for what they're saying, not the time when =
whatever it is they are talking about happens. &nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.=
lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=
=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org%=
2Ftiki%2FBPFK%2BSection%253A%2BEvidentials\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQ=
jCNG7SRp46Oj9KN17XlkLilqXlnfgHA';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'http=
://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org%2Ftiki%2FBPFK%2BSecti=
on%253A%2BEvidentials\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG7SRp46Oj9KN17XlkL=
ilqXlnfgHA';return true;">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>BPFK+Section%3A+E=
videntials</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>So it is possible to use "ba'a" to describe past events=
 in which the speaker did not participate (as in "I expect you had a good t=
ime at the party yeaterday", I don't have confirmation yet, but I expect yo=
u will be confirming it) or "ba'a nai" to talk about something that will ha=
ppen in the future ("I remember he will be leaving soon"). "ba'a cu'i" can =
also be used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they sp=
eak, not only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they ar=
e describing.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
{ti'e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly<br>
with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.<br>
{ti'enai} then implies "grounded" knowledge pe'i.<br>
So (pe'i) it would be reasonable to say {ti'enai li pa li pa te sumji li re=
},<br>
whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba'anai} sounds weird.</blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with "ba'a nai" b=
ecause presumably the speaker knows how to add one plus one and doesn't nee=
d to rely on memory to know it's two, but then someone may say "ba'a nai li=
 no sinso li pai" because they remember it from having studied it even thou=
gh they have no other evidence that that is the case.</div>
<div><br></div><div>"ti'e nai" would mean "first hand knowledge" and "ba'a =
cu'i" "knowledge that I'm getting right now", so sometimes they may both ap=
ply and sometimes only one of them, or neither.</div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Could you show an example where this ti'enai w=
ould be useful?&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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