Received: from mail-lb0-f190.google.com ([209.85.217.190]:36662) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y6hq7-0003Pf-Vx for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:10 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f190.google.com with SMTP id 10sf1771750lbg.27 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BbqxaIYaZ15WKv4VKj3U5gH/dwihD3slb54oro6HitE=; b=p/45DkuA2z+RUWRCrcZm35IPA1pr9A6U19Oe16ijuee/vBStG7FmyQaLkBIsrfMQ0E MixtDBIVQfHQqrClb/beamF/Rpmypikk3XIPKf8rMUjdMnFzyCMI8UYaitnCstqfW32B 74jwbzCW2ZS2KSPb2K29FJsUM4jNykz2GJ1RcO1qemV7T+aIpyWs+Grr0GrKtEihBn9n Fi5aAx95KgoAbGmNFl/48PqRp1ybluPyyh/br9Mmi+q+CDILNFJ4RpesEwcXn0VPt5qz jnuW3LEw7w3KdirjDgaUXC+4bqMHaE/s5WERL+PW1crBKXgiLxNLYzC2WJgyUqbWPKXJ 9rVw== X-Received: by 10.181.11.130 with SMTP id ei2mr378112wid.15.1420126741025; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:01 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.14.193 with SMTP id r1ls2271603wic.38.canary; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.89.211 with SMTP id bq19mr7596154wib.4.1420126740577; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com (mail-wi0-x22a.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jv2si2605537wid.1.2015.01.01.07.39.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a; Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id bs8so28130207wib.1 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.20.50 with SMTP id k18mr126777427wie.31.1420126740466; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.204.139 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jan 2015 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 12:39:00 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53d55fbe6cf58050b990546 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec53d55fbe6cf58050b990546 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: >>> >>> They are not different words in Lojban, just (very slightly) different >>> permitted pronunciations of the same word. Even the stress in cmevla >>> doesn't change the word, so "aleks=C3=A1ndr" and "al=C3=A9ksandr" and "= =C3=A1leksandr" >>> are >>> all valid pronounciations of the same word. Stress is only important in >>> brivla. >>> >> > Just a side note that not everyone agrees with Jorge's last assertion > (e.g. me). I've never seen that said officially anywhere, and have argue= d > against that point in, for example, this thread: > https://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners%40lojban.org/msg04820.html > > Perhaps the next iteration of the CLL will be explicit on this point > CLL https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/9/ says: << Primary stress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojban content words (called =E2=80=9Cbrivla=E2=80=9D). Lojbanized names may be stressed o= n any syllable, but if a syllable other than the penultimate is stressed, the syllable (or at least its vowel) must be capitalized in writing. Lojban structural words (called =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D) may be stressed on any syllable or none at= all. However, primary stress may not be used in a syllable just preceding a brivla, unless a pause divides them; otherwise, the two words may run together. >> So both cmevla and cmavo may be stressed on any syllable according to CLL. This is not absolutely explicit that changing the stress does not change the word into a different word, but it's hard to argue that the same rule that applies to cmavo does not apply to cmevla when they are described with the same words in the same paragraph. In a different section https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/4/ , CLL says: <> So the idea of names with more than one valid pronunciation remaining the same word is also there. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec53d55fbe6cf58050b990546 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Michael Turniansky <<= a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail= .com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
They are not different words in Lojban, just (very slightly) different
permitted pronunciations of the same word. Even the stress in cmevla
doesn't change the word, so "aleks=C3=A1ndr" and "al=C3= =A9ksandr" and "=C3=A1leksandr" are
all valid pronounciations of the same word. Stress is only important in
brivla.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Just a side note that not everyone agrees with Jorge's last assertio= n (e.g. me).=C2=A0 I've never seen that said officially anywhere, and h= ave argued against that point in, for example, this thread:=C2=A0https://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners%40lojban.or= g/msg04820.html

=C2=A0 Perhaps the next iteration of the CLL will be explicit= on this point

<<
=C2=A0Primary stress is required on the p= enultimate syllable of Lojban content words (called =E2=80=9Cbrivla=E2=80= =9D). Lojbanized names may be stressed on any syllable, but if a syllable o= ther than the penultimate is stressed, the syllable (or at least its vowel)= must be capitalized in writing. Lojban structural words (called =E2=80=9Cc= mavo=E2=80=9D) may be stressed on any syllable or none at all. However, pri= mary stress may not be used in a syllable just preceding a brivla, unless a= pause divides them; otherwise, the two words may run together.
>>

So both cm= evla and cmavo may be stressed on any syllable according to CLL. This is no= t absolutely explicit that changing the stress does not change the word int= o a different word, but it's hard to argue that the same rule that appl= ies to cmavo does not apply to cmevla when they are described with the same= words in the same paragraph.


4.1)   brl=
gan.
       [br=CC=A9l gan]
       or [brl=CC=A9 gan]
is a hypothet= ical Lojbanized name with more than one valid pronunciation; however it is = pronounced, it remains the same word.
>>

So the idea of names with more than one valid pronun= ciation remaining the same word is also there.

mu&= #39;o mi'e xorxes

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