Received: from mail-qc0-f186.google.com ([209.85.216.186]:37241) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y6iUg-0003dI-Av for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:21:05 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f186.google.com with SMTP id b13sf2936960qcw.3 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=q7oDxOC3FwXvM2d5+rzSmdYwdeLf8nig0XFwcViIz0Y=; b=DzFUTtZxlbLrUbq/J4DriaAfNojoFWG6olsnB1uGtVZ04z6eXCaFFcYEpGY45jlIfj D+UFOAV06lix/ALLew5vCChS3k2zMlUydLoYBfCcngDfeQ7h7NLqaJvNWHVa6AKnLV85 KvjhtQNwRzXkxBNX419DKPaeSPPJQQexRJccpS10Rd3aEtKGbj7pEeO0JF2gsrgHHyZ6 U0tLBuScVkcU9tDlMWag0XZeu4ZCRteKvpiy9nEOyCL2y8PQcTD8SBQg6IxieUYmHRl7 NbJFTnt5iANZn04jcwuaMEq3MPlh9nTFVtAi8PGvtKM6T5pFTqNRjZ9CPnr/9hTX2Ne7 GypA== X-Received: by 10.50.114.9 with SMTP id jc9mr265507igb.13.1420129256052; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.56.80 with SMTP id y16ls3304917igp.25.gmail; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.12.42 with SMTP id v10mr52906995igb.0.1420129255721; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-x22d.google.com (mail-qa0-x22d.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e4si4196268qcq.3.2015.01.01.08.20.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d; Received: by mail-qa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id f12so10568706qad.4 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.107.73 with SMTP id g67mr52179215qgf.103.1420129255511; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.136.138 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jan 2015 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 11:20:55 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a7c02cf5ca1050b999b19 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113a7c02cf5ca1050b999b19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pointless to go around this argument again, when it was covered in that other thread. Once again, I believe your first point to be antidispostive, because of the fact that it specifically talks about how atypical stress "*= must be *[emphasis added]" marked in cmevla, but no such statement about ma'ovla thereby implying there is a distinction between the two cases (otherwise they could/would? have been conflated to "Lojbanized names and lojban structure words (cmavo) may be stress on any syllable"). But your second argument, a new one, is a bit more on point, as it specifically points to a case where pronunciation differences do not distinguish two words. But nonetheless, again, no such indication that syllabic consonants "must be marked as...", so once again implying that stress in cmevla is sui generis. --gejyspa On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: >>>> >>>> They are not different words in Lojban, just (very slightly) different >>>> permitted pronunciations of the same word. Even the stress in cmevla >>>> doesn't change the word, so "aleks=C3=A1ndr" and "al=C3=A9ksandr" and = "=C3=A1leksandr" >>>> are >>>> all valid pronounciations of the same word. Stress is only important i= n >>>> brivla. >>>> >>> >> Just a side note that not everyone agrees with Jorge's last assertion >> (e.g. me). I've never seen that said officially anywhere, and have argu= ed >> against that point in, for example, this thread: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners%40lojban.org/msg04820.html >> >> Perhaps the next iteration of the CLL will be explicit on this point >> > > CLL https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/9/ says: > << > Primary stress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojban content > words (called =E2=80=9Cbrivla=E2=80=9D). Lojbanized names may be stressed= on any syllable, > but if a syllable other than the penultimate is stressed, the syllable (o= r > at least its vowel) must be capitalized in writing. Lojban structural wor= ds > (called =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D) may be stressed on any syllable or none = at all. However, > primary stress may not be used in a syllable just preceding a brivla, > unless a pause divides them; otherwise, the two words may run together. > >> > > So both cmevla and cmavo may be stressed on any syllable according to CLL= . > This is not absolutely explicit that changing the stress does not change > the word into a different word, but it's hard to argue that the same rule > that applies to cmavo does not apply to cmevla when they are described wi= th > the same words in the same paragraph. > > In a different section https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/4/ , CLL says: > > < variants of the non-syllabic [l], [m], [n], and [r] respectively. They > normally have only a limited distribution, appearing in Lojban names and > borrowings, although in principle any =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cm=E2= =80=9D, =E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D may be > pronounced syllabically. If a syllabic consonant appears next to a =E2=80= =9Cl=E2=80=9D, > =E2=80=9Cm=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D that is = not syllabic, it may not be clear which is which: > > 4.1) brlgan. > [br=CC=A9l gan] > or [brl=CC=A9 gan] > > is a hypothetical Lojbanized name with more than one valid pronunciation; > however it is pronounced, it remains the same word. > >> > > So the idea of names with more than one valid pronunciation remaining the > same word is also there. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113a7c02cf5ca1050b999b19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pointless to go around this argument again, = when it was covered in that other thread. Once again, I believe your first = point to be antidispostive, because of the fact that it specifically talks = about how atypical stress "must be=C2=A0[emphasis added]"= =C2=A0marked in cmevla, but no such statement about ma'ovla thereby imp= lying there is a distinction between the two cases (otherwise they could/wo= uld? have been conflated to "Lojbanized names and lojban structure wor= ds (cmavo) may be stress on any syllable").=C2=A0 But your second argu= ment, a new one, is a bit more on point, as it specifically points to a cas= e where pronunciation differences do not distinguish two words.=C2=A0 But n= onetheless, again, no such indication that syllabic consonants "must b= e marked as...", so once again implying that stress in cmevla is sui g= eneris.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Jo= rge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, = Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: They are not different words in Lojban, just (very slightly) different
permitted pronunciations of the same word. Even the stress in cmevla
doesn't change the word, so "aleks=C3=A1ndr" and "al=C3= =A9ksandr" and "=C3=A1leksandr" are
all valid pronounciations of the same word. Stress is only important in
brivla.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Just a side note that not everyone agrees with Jorge's last assertio= n (e.g. me).=C2=A0 I've never seen that said officially anywhere, and h= ave argued against that point in, for example, this thread:=C2=A0https://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners%40lojban.or= g/msg04820.html

=C2=A0 Perhaps the next iteration of the CLL will be explicit= on this point

<<
=C2=A0Primary st= ress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojban content words (calle= d =E2=80=9Cbrivla=E2=80=9D). Lojbanized names may be stressed on any syllab= le, but if a syllable other than the penultimate is stressed, the syllable = (or at least its vowel) must be capitalized in writing. Lojban structural w= ords (called =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D) may be stressed on any syllable or no= ne at all. However, primary stress may not be used in a syllable just prece= ding a brivla, unless a pause divides them; otherwise, the two words may ru= n together.
>>

So both cmevla and cmavo may be stressed on any syllable accor= ding to CLL. This is not absolutely explicit that changing the stress does = not change the word into a different word, but it's hard to argue that = the same rule that applies to cmavo does not apply to cmevla when they are = described with the same words in the same paragraph.

In a different section=C2=A0https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/4/=C2=A0, CLL says:

<<The syllabic consonants of Lojban,=C2= =A0[l=CC=A9],=C2=A0[m=CC=A9],=C2=A0[n=CC=A9], and=C2= =A0[r=CC=A9], are variants of the non-syllabic=C2=A0[l],=C2= =A0[m],=C2=A0[n], and=C2=A0[r]=C2=A0respectively. They= normally have only a limited distribution, appearing in Lojban names and b= orrowings, although in principle any =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cm=E2=80= =9D, =E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D may be pronounced syllabic= ally. If a syllabic consonant appears next to a =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D, =E2=80= =9Cm=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D that is not syll= abic, it may not be clear which is which:
4.1)   brlgan.
       [br=CC=A9l gan]
       or [brl=CC=A9 gan]
is a hypothet= ical Lojbanized name with more than one valid pronunciation; however it is = pronounced, it remains the same word.
>>

So the idea of names with more than one valid pronun= ciation remaining the same word is also there.
<= br>
mu'o mi'e xorxes

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