Received: from mail-ie0-f189.google.com ([209.85.223.189]:64288) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y6jln-0003wb-Rn for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:50 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f189.google.com with SMTP id rd18sf2936961iec.6 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=NjS6l3hzwyTyHVIVAvemC7ukxz1omMwsdIqvgAXxTJU=; b=cPutp2ljCYt2ToIFkBbDc+uIXJ7g3sNWsFzgNwVrUsee65RiwK7Iw41K9zs/w64JvL zimRk1DpFFc/kzr7edlSlTxbklbMqNAAre+EttBqLEcodpuwP7rQBRxUlByvryYnjkkq BQBYvVZn4+OsR7I7Tz90NsZli9LmcGP1miJf3acH/bIUI9NRGED/9+NSxZOtsxRhvVdV Zzdcl82QxM0LpvjuAqkz2XlMb/AQkhHTfOWQ6eDnehbO2XpT3tIT7vivYQaoayvfVm0k 5vncAWMmonDRJ8ZYuYti7VdCjWsF/JDh1JvkR7Yo1JZ7WIXJaNIzr0fa8IEegsUUb8GE AXMw== X-Received: by 10.140.108.9 with SMTP id i9mr1218183qgf.1.1420134161649; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.83.228 with SMTP id j91ls892928qgd.96.gmail; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.4.194 with SMTP id 42mr1540720yhj.24.1420134161385; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-x236.google.com (mail-qa0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r4si1940053qca.0.2015.01.01.09.42.41 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236; Received: by mail-qa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id i13so9921396qae.41 for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.224.54.2 with SMTP id o2mr118276886qag.63.1420134161235; Thu, 01 Jan 2015 09:42:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.82.137 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jan 2015 09:42:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1703532.rDoX2n4cJP@caracal> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 12:42:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1132f08036c7a1050b9ac0b7 X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1132f08036c7a1050b9ac0b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Russian =D1=88/=D0=B6 are typically pronounced as retroflexes /=CA=82/=CA= =90/, whereas English uses /=CA=83/=CA=92/. In Lojban the nonretroflex sound seems to be primary,= although the retroflex version is acceptable. stevo On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2014-09-29 5:34 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat : > >> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 02:41:39 Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote: >> > More and more these discussions reveal to me that my understanding of >> what >> > a "stress" on a syllable means is flawed/limited - it was based on wha= t >> my >> > parents/school taught me with regard to Russian (in America on the oth= er >> > hand I've virtually never had syllable stress/emphasis come up in >> > discussion of how to pronounce things: closest thing that comes to min= d >> > is a quote from some sitcom where one character says "you're putting >> > the emphAsis on the wrong syllAble", and to clarify, besides >> > stress/emphasis, they also made those 'A's like lojban's 'a' sound, no= t >> > like their typical pronunciation, which in my mind is more like a lojb= an >> > 'y' typically.) >> >> Those stressed A's should actually be pronounced as /=C3=A6/. >> >> > So to give some context: My understanding, and I very very tentatively >> > want to say most Russians' understanding, is that there is no real >> > distinction between emphasis and stress on a syllable (I think this is >> > still correct?), but also that there is and can ever be only one >> syllable >> > per word that is stressed (this latter part I was taught early enough >> that >> > somehow, despite it not being logically sound now that I think about i= t, >> > I can't for the life of me recall rejecting it ever since). Because of >> > this, I have ONLY my Russian childhood based understanding of syllable >> > stress to guide me. >> >> There are a few words with two stresses in Russian, like "=D1=87=D0=B5= =D1=82=D1=8B=D1=80=D1=91=D1=85=D1=81=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=8B=D0=B9". >> There >> are also some Spanish words with two stresses, such as "acu=C3=A1ticamen= te" >> (the >> first e in "-mente" is also stressed). In English, sufficiently long >> words have >> some syllables with secondary stress. >> >> > Okay, so worse still, as you bring up, in Russian the 'a' and 'o' vowe= ls >> > are collapsed (is that a/the technical term for this?) into what sound= s >> > like the lojban 'y' when not stressed. So my understanding of what it >> even >> > means to stress a syllable was at least partly conflated with actually >> > changing the phoneme until recently as well. >> >> It's actually called "vowel reduction". English does this, but the rules >> are >> different than in Russian: 'o' can sound like /a/ in stressed syllables. >> Spanish does not (though there's a dialect in which vowels are changed i= n >> the >> presence of a swallowed 's'), nor does Finnish. >> >> > Yes, I think some or even most of us don't actually realize either of >> > these phoneme transformations happen. We also effectively claim "=D0= =B6=D0=B8" is >> > really pronounced "=D0=B6=D1=8B", ditto for "=D1=88=D0=B8"->"=D1=88=D1= =8B" (sidenote, this is so >> > ingrained I had to retrain myself for the lojban "ji" and "ci" >> > combinations to pronounce them with an actual "i" sound), but those ar= e >> > really heavily asserted in early teaching, so I ended up picking it up >> > consciously. I only noticed the =D0=B2->=D1=84 thing when I was alread= y in America >> > and working to maintain/further my Russian: I kept writing things endi= ng >> > with =D1=84 because that's what they sounded like, then getting correc= ted >> that >> > it's actually =D0=B2. I wonder if Russians who spent more time immerse= d in >> just >> > Russian end up not noting the latter, or perhaps even not noticing the >> > former. But to answer your question, I know a phonetically-faithful >> > reproduction is "kojevnikyv", but see Gleki's reply to your statement >> and >> > my additional reply after it: >> >> There are Turkic languages, like Kazakh, that have both "=D0=B6=D0=B8" a= nd "=D0=B6=D1=8B" and >> pronounce them differently. >> > =D0=B6=D0=B8 is exactly how i pronounce {ji} in Lojban. > =D0=B6=D1=8B (unstressed) is exactly how i pronounce {jy} in Lojban. > >> >> Pierre >> -- >> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du >> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1132f08036c7a1050b9ac0b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Russian =D1=88/=D0=B6 are typically pronounced as = retroflexes /=CA=82/=CA=90/, whereas English u= ses /=CA=83/=CA=92/. In Lojban the nonretroflex sound seems to be primary, a= lthough the retroflex version is acceptable.=C2=A0

stevo

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2014-09-29 5:34 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat= <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Sunday, S= eptember 28, 2014 02:41:39 Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote:
> More and more these discussions reveal to me that my understanding of = what
> a "stress" on a syllable means is flawed/limited - it was ba= sed on what my
> parents/school taught me with regard to Russian (in America on the oth= er
> hand I've virtually never had syllable stress/emphasis come up in<= br> > discussion of how to pronounce things: closest thing that comes to min= d
> is a quote from some sitcom where one character says "you're = putting
> the emphAsis on the wrong syllAble", and to clarify, besides
> stress/emphasis, they also made those 'A's like lojban's &= #39;a' sound, not
> like their typical pronunciation, which in my mind is more like a lojb= an
> 'y' typically.)

Those stressed A's should actually be pronounced as /=C3=A6/.
> So to give some context: My understanding, and I very very tentatively=
> want to say most Russians' understanding, is that there is no real=
> distinction between emphasis and stress on a syllable (I think this is=
> still correct?), but also that there is and can ever be only one sylla= ble
> per word that is stressed (this latter part I was taught early enough = that
> somehow, despite it not being logically sound now that I think about i= t,
> I can't for the life of me recall rejecting it ever since). Becaus= e of
> this, I have ONLY my Russian childhood based understanding of syllable=
> stress to guide me.

There are a few words with two stresses in Russian, like "=D1= =87=D0=B5=D1=82=D1=8B=D1=80=D1=91=D1=85=D1=81=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=8B=D0=B9"= . There
are also some Spanish words with two stresses, such as "acu=C3=A1ticam= ente" (the
first e in "-mente" is also stressed). In English, sufficiently l= ong words have
some syllables with secondary stress.

> Okay, so worse still, as you bring up, in Russian the 'a' and = 'o' vowels
> are collapsed (is that a/the technical term for this?) into what sound= s
> like the lojban 'y' when not stressed. So my understanding of = what it even
> means to stress a syllable was at least partly conflated with actually=
> changing the phoneme until recently as well.

It's actually called "vowel reduction". English does t= his, but the rules are
different than in Russian: 'o' can sound like /a/ in stressed sylla= bles.
Spanish does not (though there's a dialect in which vowels are changed = in the
presence of a swallowed 's'), nor does Finnish.

> Yes, I think some or even most of us don't actually realize either= of
> these phoneme transformations happen. We also effectively claim "= =D0=B6=D0=B8" is
> really pronounced "=D0=B6=D1=8B", ditto for "=D1=88=D0= =B8"->"=D1=88=D1=8B" (sidenote, this is so
> ingrained I had to retrain myself for the lojban "ji" and &q= uot;ci"
> combinations to pronounce them with an actual "i" sound), bu= t those are
> really heavily asserted in early teaching, so I ended up picking it up=
> consciously. I only noticed the =D0=B2->=D1=84 thing when I was alr= eady in America
> and working to maintain/further my Russian: I kept writing things endi= ng
> with =D1=84 because that's what they sounded like, then getting co= rrected that
> it's actually =D0=B2. I wonder if Russians who spent more time imm= ersed in just
> Russian end up not noting the latter, or perhaps even not noticing the=
> former. But to answer your question, I know a phonetically-faithful > reproduction is "kojevnikyv", but see Gleki's reply to y= our statement and
> my additional reply after it:

There are Turkic languages, like Kazakh, that have both "=D0=B6= =D0=B8" and "=D0=B6=D1=8B" and
pronounce them differently.
=D0=B6=D0=B8 i= s exactly how i pronounce {ji} in Lojban.
=D0=B6=D1=8B (unstresse= d) is exactly how i pronounce {jy} in Lojban.

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1132f08036c7a1050b9ac0b7--