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[2a00:1450:400c:c03::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f6si624475wiv.0.2015.01.25.22.53.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22f; Received: by mail-we0-f175.google.com with SMTP id p10so7300904wes.6 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.8.232 with SMTP id u8mr16747960wja.47.1422255234073; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:53:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.86.200 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:53:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4999df3f-bbbe-4885-997a-2c204183d092@googlegroups.com> References: <4999df3f-bbbe-4885-997a-2c204183d092@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 09:53:33 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Questions about Lojban To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d348c01cd75050d889ae5 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: 2015-01-25 22:17 GMT+03:00 : > Hello Everyone! > > Following below is an email I recently sent to an email adress I found on > lojban.org. > What was the first email you sent this letter to? It's important since if the website still lists incorrect or not appropriate e-mail addresses then they should be corrected by us. [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.217.184 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders --047d7b5d348c01cd75050d889ae5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-01-25 22:17 GMT+03:00 : > Hello Everyone! > > Following below is an email I recently sent to an email adress I found on > lojban.org. > What was the first email you sent this letter to? It's important since if the website still lists incorrect or not appropriate e-mail addresses then they should be corrected by us. I was redirected to this forum, and I was told I would be able to get > better answers here. If any of you are willing to answer some of the > questions asked, It would help me out a lot! Thanks in advance!! The email: > > L.S. > > My name is Afke and in my philosophy class we have recently discussed the > Sapir-Whorf theory, and currently my classmates and I are working on a > project concerning whether this theory is, according to us, correct or not. > We are doing this through the means of setting up a hypothesis and > testing this hypothesis on the basis of applying it to a specific case. Our > group has chosen the Lojban language as our case, and we were very excited > to have come across your website and discovering that the Lojban community > is still very active. Therefore we thought it might be possible to contact > you and ask you some questions concerning our project, which, if it is of > no inconvience, we would very much like for you to answer. > > Assuming that you are familiar with the idea of the Sapir-Whorf theory, > which claims that people speaking a different language will percieve > reality in a different way, our main question is whether you would agree > with this theory or not. > I would agree but it has nothing to do with Lojban in particular. I think it was proved by the case of Guugu Yimitthir cardinal directions which you of course are familiar with. In my opinion if this case isnt convincing for a person as a proof of the true views of Sapir and Whorf ... if it isnt convincing then this person can't be convinced at all. So it's a psychological question, not a scientific one. Of course, I can't agree with historically later distortions of SWH made by their followers like e.g. "Language puts insurmountable limits on how a person thinks". > Does being able to speak in a different, logical language also mean that > you are able to think in a different, logical manner? > Speaking in any new language will make your mind expand. Lojban can help you understand how all languages work. Lojban can be an instrument of cognition. All languages put limits on how we think. But every new language learnt expands those limits. You will pay attention to such differences as {la'e lu lo cmalu noltru li'u barda} = "The little prince" is big. {lu lo cmalu noltru li'u cmalu} = "The little prince" (a quote, a text, a sentence) is small. You will pay attention that all constructs belong to different classes which in English can be called "adverbs", "main verbs (predicates)", arguments of verbs (nouns, names and pronouns), "interjections" etc. Languages differ in this regard but Lojban will help you see similar constructs in other languages and boost your ability to learn logical parts of them. Also Lojban will pay your attention to polysemy of words and ambiguity of certain constructs. E.g. "I saw a plane flying over Zurich" might mean: 1. I saw a plane [while I was] flying over Zurich. 2. I saw a plane [while it was] flying over Zurich. 3. The sentence is intentionally made ambiguous between 1. and 2. by its author. Now without enough context while reading this sentence we have the fourth meta-case: 4. While reading this sentence we can't decide whether the author meant 1., 2. or 3. And although Lojban allows for cases 1,2,3 it disallows the meta-case 4. This is the field where Lojban can be developed into a tool for machine translation. > And seeing that Lojban (most probably) is not your first language, do you > believe that people are able to learn to change the way they percieve > reality, just like they are able to learn a new language? > For sure. English isn't my native language. I speak English to certain people and speak my native language (Russian) to other people. Thus there are two people inside me speaking different languages. So for example, does someone who can speak a Native American language as > well as regular English have the possibility to view reality in two > different ways? > When you are pouring water from a kettle you say "I'm pouring water from the kettle". It lasts for several seconds until the kettle becomes empty. When water flows for thousands of years we no longer use a verb. We no longer perceive it as a process. We call it "river", an object. No wonder Amerindian languages might not always put this distinction between objects and processes. You may also read about gleki's fishy apples. http://mw.lojban.org/lmw/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_la_gleki's_fishy_apples > Is this the reason you are so interested in Lojban, because it enables you > to think and percieve the world more logically? And if not, where did your > interest for the Lojban language come from? > Scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, businessmen, artists they all use language and can't jump over it. Learning or inventing new words, metaphors or languages just allows them to jump higher. All reasoning is done through language. Lojban is a special language since it tries to deal with the syntax, i.e. foundation all languages are based on. Lojban isn't perfect semantically although the live community shows aiming at it too (no language will ever reach it). However, syntax is already perfect, only in a sense of being completely described. It doesn't mean Lojban is a completely described language. We are still working on formalizing other areas e.g. specifying lambda-functions in valencies of verbs... > If it is possible for you to answer these questions, we would like to hear > from you soon! > > > Thanking you in advance! > > Sincerely, > > Afke van Aller > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b5d348c01cd75050d889ae5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-01-25 22:17 GMT+03:00 <afkecatha@gmail.com>:
=
Hell= o Everyone!

Following below is an email I recently sent to a= n email adress I found on l= ojban.org.

What was the fir= st email =C2=A0you sent this letter to? It's important since if the web= site still lists incorrect or not appropriate e-mail addresses then they sh= ould be corrected by us.

I was redirected to this forum, a= nd I was told I would be able to get better answers here. If any of you are= willing to answer some of the questions asked, It would help me out a lot!= Thanks in advance!! The email:
<= br>
L.S.

My name is= Afke and in my philosophy class we have recently discussed the Sapir-Whorf= theory, and currently my classmates and I are working on a project concern= ing whether this theory is, according to us, correct or not. We are doing t= his through the means=C2=A0o= f setting up a hypothesis and testing this hypothesis on the basis of apply= ing it to a specific case. Our group has chosen the Lojban language as our = case, and we were very excited to have come across your website and discove= ring that the Lojban community is still very active. Therefore we thought i= t might be possible to contact you and ask you some questions concerning ou= r project, which, if it is of no inconvience, we would very much like for y= ou to answer.

Assuming that you are familiar with the idea of the Sapir-Whorf theory, wh= ich claims that people speaking a different language will percieve reality = in a different way, our main question is whether you would agree with this = theory or not.

I would agree bu= t it has nothing to do with Lojban in particular. I think it was proved by = the case of Guugu Yimitthir cardinal directions which you of course are fam= iliar with.
In my opinion if this case isnt convincing for a pers= on as a proof of the true views of Sapir and Whorf ... if it isnt convincin= g then this person can't be convinced at all.
So it's a p= sychological question, not a scientific one.

Of co= urse, I can't agree with historically later distortions of SWH made by = their followers like e.g. "Language puts insurmountable limits on how = a person thinks".
=C2=A0
Does being able to speak in a dif= ferent, logical language also mean that you are able to think in a differen= t, logical manner?

Speaking in = any new language will make your mind expand.
Lojban can help you = understand how all languages work.
Lojban can be an instrument of= cognition.

All languages put limits on how we thi= nk. But every new language learnt expands those limits.
You will = pay attention to such differences as
{la'e lu lo cmalu noltru= li'u barda} =3D "The little prince" is big.
{lu lo= cmalu noltru li'u cmalu} =3D "The little prince" (a quote, a= text, a sentence) is small.

You will pay atte= ntion that all constructs belong to different classes which in English can = be called "adverbs", "main verbs (predicates)", argumen= ts of verbs (nouns, names and pronouns), "interjections" etc. Lan= guages differ in this regard but Lojban will help you see similar construct= s in other languages and boost your ability to learn logical parts of them.=

Also Lojban will pay your attention to polysemy o= f words and ambiguity of certain constructs.
E.g.
"= ;I saw a plane flying over Zurich" might mean:
1. I saw a pl= ane [while I was] flying over Zurich.
2. I saw a plane [whil= e it was] flying over Zurich.
3. The sentence is inten= tionally made ambiguous between 1. and 2. by its author.
Now without enough context while reading this sentence we have= the fourth meta-case:
4. While reading this sentence we can'= t decide whether the author meant 1., 2. or 3.

And although Lojban allows for cases 1,2,3 it disallows the met= a-case 4.
This is the field where Lojban can be developed into a = tool for machine translation.



<= /div>
=C2=A0
And seeing that Lojban (most probably) is not your first= language, do you believe that people are able to learn to change the way t= hey percieve reality, just like they are able to learn a new language?

For sure. English isn't my nati= ve language. I speak English to certain people and speak my native language= (Russian) to other people.
Thus there are two people inside me s= peaking different languages.


So for example= , does someone who can speak a Native American language as well as regular = English have the possibility to view reality in two different ways?

When you are pouring water from a kett= le you say "I'm pouring water from the kettle". It lasts for = several seconds until the kettle becomes empty.
When water flows = for thousands of years we no longer use a verb.
We no longer perc= eive it as a process.
We call it "river", an object.
No wonder Amerindian languages might not always put this distinctio= n between objects and processes.

You may also read= about gleki's fishy apples.
=C2= =A0
Is this the reason you are so interested in Lojban, because it en= ables you to think and percieve the world more logically? And if not, where= did your interest for the Lojban language come from?

Scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, businessme= n, artists they all use language and can't jump over it. Learning or in= venting new words, metaphors or languages just allows them to jump higher.= =C2=A0All reasoning is done through language.

Lojb= an is a special language since it tries to deal with the syntax, i.e.=C2=A0= foundation all languages are based on.
Lojban isn't perfect s= emantically although the live community shows aiming at it too (no language= will ever reach it). However, syntax is already perfect, only in a sense o= f being completely described.
It doesn't mean Lojban is a com= pletely described language.
We are still working on formalizing o= ther areas e.g. specifying lambda-functions in valencies of verbs...
<= div>

If it is possible for you to answer these quest= ions, we would like to hear from you soon!=C2=A0


Thanki= ng you in advance!

Sincerely,

Afke van Aller<= /div>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b5d348c01cd75050d889ae5--