Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::230;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <731619219.1158694.1422464634254.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAO7tK2dtM1nLPQECuDHjisNQJRCy1JJ-VLTDdA-ph=DjU_7Y5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <731619219.1158694.1422464634254.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:22:25 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+hCaoyETCeVJufDxBrgnaKgqfT1eOLFFduYWadScpO2RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Questions about Lojban
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013c63363b8d4a050dba7500
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: 0.8
X-Spam_score_int: 8
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 
 Content preview:  2015-01-28 20:03 GMT+03:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
   lojban@googlegroups.com>: > This is a grammatical fact which gives rise to
    a practical uncertainty: > which proposition is being asserted, roughly,
   "When I was flying over > Zurich, I saw a plane" or "I saw a plane when it
    was flying over Zurich". > Lojban cannot create this uncertainty in the same
    way, since it cannot > produce an amphibolous sentence, so, if it wants to
    create the same (or a > practically similar) uncertainty, it must say, in
    effect "When either I or > a plane were flying over Zurich, I saw the plane".
    Same uncertainty, but > no amphiboly. (It is not quite the same uncertainty,
    since tgis asserts a > definite proposition, whereas the original English
    failed to actually > assert one, only presenting two possibilities, neither
    of them really put > forward.) [...] 
 
 Content analysis details:   (0.8 points, 5.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
  0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED          ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked.
                             See
                             http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block
                              for more information.
                             [URIs: googlegroups.com]
  2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL    RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org
                             [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org.	IN]
                             [A]
 -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3      RBL: Good reputation (+3)
                             [209.85.217.185 listed in wl.mailspike.net]
  0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail
                             domains are different
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
                             (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com)
  0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED   No valid author signature, adsp_override is
                             CUSTOM_MED
  0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
                             [score: 0.0000]
 -0.1 DKIM_VALID             Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
  0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid
  0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and
                             EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different
 -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL      Mailspike good senders

--089e013c63363b8d4a050dba7500
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

2015-01-28 20:03 GMT+03:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com>:

>  This is a grammatical fact which gives rise to a practical uncertainty:
> which proposition is being asserted, roughly,  "When I was flying over
> Zurich, I saw a plane"  or "I saw a plane when it was flying over Zurich".
> Lojban cannot create this uncertainty in the same way, since it cannot
> produce an amphibolous sentence, so, if it wants to create the same (or a
> practically similar) uncertainty, it must say, in effect "When either I or
> a plane were flying over Zurich, I saw the plane".  Same uncertainty, but
> no amphiboly.  (It is not quite the same uncertainty, since tgis asserts a
> definite proposition, whereas the original English failed to actually
> assert one, only presenting two possibilities, neither of them really put
> forward.)


And even in
{mi pu viska lo vinji ca lonu lo se xi vei mo'e zo'e no'a cu vofli ga'u la
tsurix}
you see uncertainty but not amphiboly?
What is put forward here now? Again uncertainty? Then why can't the English
sentence be perceived exactly the same way as creating uncertainty to which
sumti the clause links to?

Why should we call the same thing "ambiguous parse" in one case and
uncertainty in the other case?
Why not say that in this aspect English is as uncertain as Lojban and not
ambiguous?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--089e013c63363b8d4a050dba7500
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
2015-01-28 20:03 GMT+03:00 &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">l=
ojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0This is a =
grammatical fact which gives rise to a practical uncertainty: which proposi=
tion is being asserted, roughly, =C2=A0&quot;When I was flying over Zurich,=
 I saw a plane&quot; =C2=A0or &quot;I saw a plane when it was flying over Z=
urich&quot;.=C2=A0 Lojban cannot create this uncertainty in the same way, s=
ince it cannot produce an amphibolous sentence, so, if it wants to create t=
he same (or a practically similar) uncertainty, it must say, in effect &quo=
t;When either I or a plane were flying over Zurich, I saw the plane&quot;.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0Same uncertainty, but no amphiboly. =C2=A0(It is not quite the =
same uncertainty, since tgis asserts a definite proposition, whereas the or=
iginal English failed to actually assert one, only presenting two possibili=
ties, neither of them really put forward.)</blockquote></div><br>And even i=
n</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">{mi pu viska lo vinji ca lonu lo se xi ve=
i mo&#39;e zo&#39;e no&#39;a cu vofli ga&#39;u la tsurix}</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">you see uncertainty but not amphiboly?</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra">What is put forward here now? Again uncertainty? Then why can&=
#39;t the English sentence be perceived exactly the same way as creating un=
certainty to which sumti the clause links to?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Why should we call the same thing &=
quot;ambiguous parse&quot; in one case and uncertainty in the other case?</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Why not say that in this aspect English is a=
s uncertain as Lojban and not ambiguous?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--089e013c63363b8d4a050dba7500--