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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 10:27:59 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantics of modals
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  I think of them as in your M1 example, adding additional
   places to the place structure, and therefore not scoping at different levels
    as your L1-L2 suggests (although of course order still matters in the scope
    of things like quantifiers and existentials). Roughly speaking, all modals
    (both BAI and FI'O FE'U forms) can fit into the English prepositional phrase
    template "with a ... of...." (aided by the fact that it's a very vague phrase):
    se pi'o le zunle kanla (with a tool of the left eye)) se ri'a le nu do djacu
    dunda fi le spati (with a cause of you watering the plantf ) fi'o kanla lo
    zunle (with an eye of the left kind) [...] 
 
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  I think of them as in your M1 example, adding additional places to the
place structure, and therefore not scoping at different levels as your
L1-L2 suggests (although of course order still matters in the scope of
things like quantifiers and existentials).  Roughly speaking, all modals
(both BAI and FI'O FE'U forms) can fit into the English prepositional
phrase template "with a ... of...." (aided by the fact that it's a very
vague phrase):
se pi'o le zunle kanla (with a tool of the left eye))
se ri'a le nu do djacu dunda fi le spati (with a cause of you watering the
plantf )
fi'o kanla lo zunle (with an eye of the left kind)

          --gejyspa

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmyshov <
dmitry.kourmyshov@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not sure how modals work. I just learning the language and at first
> thought about posting this to lojban-beginners, but was adviced on #lojba=
n
> to post it here, as the argument could be non-trivial.
>
> The firtst two alternatives I see are:
>
> M1. Modals add additional places to predicate, creating new predicate
> related to basic, but with different place-structure:
>
>
> 5.1)   mi viska do fi'o kanla [fe'u] le zunle
>
>
> Basic predicate "x1 sees/views/perceives visually x2 under conditions x3.=
"
> modified into "x1 sees/views/perceives visually x2 under conditions x3,
> the eye being xm"
>
> 6.1)   mi viska do sepi'o le zunle kanla
>
>
> The same predicate is modified into "x1 sees/views/perceives visually x2
> under conditions x3, using xm as a tool"
>
> M2. Modals introduce additional predicates, linked to the main one...
> somehow. Example 6.1) would be interpreted as:
>
> "P1: x1 sees/views/perceives visually x2 under conditions x3.
> P2:using x1 uses/employs xm [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting
> entity, material] for purpose (du'u) P1."
>
> It is difficult to interpret example 5.1) in such a way, as {kanla} does
> not offer place to link subordinate predicate directly, as is the case wi=
th
> the third place of {pilno}: "x1 is a/the eye [body-part] of x2" =E2=80=94=
 here,
> we only can connect x2 of {kanla} with x1 of {viska}, but not with whole =
P
> 1
>
> Modal connectives seem to support this alternative:
>
> 7.1)   le spati cu banro ri'a le nu do djacu dunda fi le spati
>
>
> 7.5)   do djacu dunda fi le spati seri'a le nu ri banro
>
>
> 7.6)   le nu do djacu dunda fi le spati cu rinka le nu le spati cu banro
>
>
> 7.7)   le spati cu banro .iri'abo do djacu dunda fi le spati
>
> All sentences under this interpretation have same predicate structure:
>
> P1 :x1 grows/expands [an increasing development] to size/into form {zo'e}
> from {zo'e}.
> P2: {nu} P1 (event/state) effects/physically causes effect {nu} P3
> (event/state) under conditions {zo'e}.
> P3: y1 [donor] (water-type of) gives/donates gift/present {zo'e} to
> recipient/beneficiary y3 [without payment/exchange].
>
> but differ on which predicates are claimed and which are held as
> abstractions.
>
> (By the way, am I right in understanding what only those modals which hav=
e
> short BAI form could be used in connectives?)
>
>
> There could be third alternative, or at least, additional factor to
> consider that a recent discussion on #lojban touched. If multiple modals
> are present in the same statement, then the order of their appearance cou=
ld
> matter, as they modify the main predicate one-by-one, creating scopes:
>
> L1) {se pi'o lo forca ka'ai lo gerku mi citka}
> Using a fork as a tool (accompanied by a dog (I am eating))
>
> L2) {ka'ai lo gerku se pi'o lo forca mi citka}
> Accompanied by a dog (using a fork as a tool (I am eating))
>
> This view seem to be more easily combined with the first of my
> alternatives above, as ka'ai transforms {citka} "x1 eats x2" into "x1
> eats x2, accompanied by x3.", but still difference between full sencences
> is unclear, as they have same places. Second alternative, though, preserv=
e
> the structure of scopes fully =E2=80=94 but forces to introduce compound =
predicates:
>
> "P1 : x1 eats/ingests/consumes (transitive verb) x2.
> P2: x1 is with/accompanies/is a companion of xm1, in
> state/condition/enterprise P1 (event/state).
> P1&2: P1 & P2
> P3:using x1 uses/employs xm2 [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting
> entity, material] for purpose (du'u) P1&2."
>
> (and vice versa for L2) )
>
> I have to admit what view M2 is influenced by how modals are handled in
> gua sp=C3=AC and T=C3=B2aq Dz=C5=A9, but also seem to be supported, as I =
mentioned before,
> by how modal connectives work in lojban. So what do you think, which view
> is more correct? Or is there some other interpretation?
>
> --
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 I think of them as in your M1 example, adding addit=
ional places to the place structure, and therefore not scoping at different=
 levels as your L1-L2 suggests (although of course order still matters in t=
he scope of things like quantifiers and existentials).=C2=A0 Roughly speaki=
ng, all modals (both BAI and FI&#39;O FE&#39;U forms) can fit into the Engl=
ish prepositional phrase template &quot;with a ... of....&quot; (aided by t=
he fact that it&#39;s a very vague phrase):<div>se pi&#39;o le zunle kanla =
(with a tool of the left eye))</div><div>se ri&#39;a=C2=A0<span style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">le nu do djacu dunda fi le spati </span>(with a cause o=
f you watering the plantf )</div><div>fi&#39;o kanla lo zunle (with an eye =
of the left kind)=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmys=
hov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dmitry.kourmyshov@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">dmitry.kourmyshov@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I am not sure how modals work. I =
just learning the language and at first thought about posting this to lojba=
n-beginners, but was adviced on #lojban to post it here, as the argument co=
uld be non-trivial.<br><br>The firtst two alternatives I see are:<br><br>M1=
. Modals add additional places to predicate, creating new predicate related=
 to basic, but with different place-structure:<br><pre><a name=3D"14b3843a4=
c7f62b3_e1"><br>5.1)</a>   mi viska do fi&#39;o kanla [fe&#39;u] le zunle</=
pre><br>Basic predicate &quot;x<sub>1</sub> sees/views/perceives visually x=
<sub>2</sub> under conditions x<sub>3</sub>.&quot; modified into &quot;x<su=
b>1</sub> sees/views/perceives visually x<sub>2</sub> under conditions x<su=
b>3</sub>, the eye being x<sub>m</sub>&quot;<br><br><pre><a name=3D"14b3843=
a4c7f62b3_e1">6.1)</a>   mi viska do sepi&#39;o le zunle kanla</pre><br>The=
 same predicate is modified into &quot;x<sub>1</sub> sees/views/perceives v=
isually x<sub>2</sub> under conditions x<sub>3</sub>, using x<sub>m</sub> a=
s a tool&quot;<br><br>M2. Modals introduce additional predicates, linked to=
 the main one... somehow. Example 6.1) would be interpreted as:<br><br>&quo=
t;P<sub>1: </sub>x<sub>1</sub> sees/views/perceives visually x<sub>2</sub> =
under conditions x<sub>3</sub>.<br>P<sub>2</sub>:using x<sub>1</sub> uses/e=
mploys x<sub>m</sub><sub></sub> [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting en=
tity, material] for purpose (du&#39;u) P<sub>1</sub><sub></sub>.&quot;<br><=
br>It is difficult to interpret example 5.1) in such a way, as {kanla} does=
 not offer place to link subordinate predicate directly, as is the case wit=
h the third place of {pilno}: &quot;x<sub>1</sub> is a/the eye [body-part] =
of x<sub>2</sub>&quot; =E2=80=94 here, we only can connect x<sub>2 </sub>of=
 {kanla} with x<sub>1 </sub>of {viska}, but not with whole P<sub>1<br><br><=
/sub>Modal connectives seem to support this alternative:<br><br><pre><a nam=
e=3D"14b3843a4c7f62b3_e1">7.1)</a>   le spati cu banro ri&#39;a le nu do dj=
acu dunda fi le spati
</pre><br><pre><a name=3D"14b3843a4c7f62b3_e5">7.5)</a>   do djacu dunda fi=
 le spati seri&#39;a le nu ri banro</pre><br><pre><a name=3D"14b3843a4c7f62=
b3_e6">7.6)</a>   le nu do djacu dunda fi le spati cu rinka le nu le spati =
cu banro</pre><br><pre><a name=3D"14b3843a4c7f62b3_e7">7.7)</a>   le spati =
cu banro .iri&#39;abo do djacu dunda fi le spati<br><br></pre> All sentence=
s under this interpretation have same predicate structure:<br><br>P<sub>1</=
sub> :x<sub>1</sub> grows/expands [an increasing development] to size/into =
form {zo&#39;e}<sub></sub> from {zo&#39;e}<sub></sub>.<br>P<sub>2</sub>: {n=
u} P<sub>1</sub> (event/state) effects/physically causes effect {nu} P<sub>=
3</sub> (event/state) under conditions {zo&#39;e}.<br>P<sub>3</sub>: y<sub>=
1</sub> [donor] (water-type of) gives/donates gift/present {zo&#39;e}<sub><=
/sub> to recipient/beneficiary y<sub>3</sub> [without payment/exchange].<br=
><br>but differ on which predicates are claimed and which are held as abstr=
actions.<br><br>(By the way, am I right in understanding what only those mo=
dals which have short BAI form could be used in connectives?)<br><br><br>Th=
ere could be third alternative, or at least, additional factor to consider =
that a recent discussion on #lojban touched. If multiple modals are present=
 in the same statement, then the order of their appearance could matter, as=
 they modify the main predicate one-by-one, creating scopes:<br><br>L1) {se=
 pi&#39;o lo forca ka&#39;ai lo gerku mi citka}<br>Using a fork as a tool (=
accompanied by a dog (I am eating))<br><br>L2) {ka&#39;ai lo gerku se pi=
9;o lo forca mi citka}<br>Accompanied by a dog (using a fork as a tool  (I =
am eating))<br><br>This view seem to be more easily combined with the first=
 of my alternatives above, as ka&#39;ai transforms {citka} &quot;x<sub>1</s=
ub> eats x<sub>2</sub>&quot; into &quot;x<sub>1</sub> eats x<sub>2</sub>, a=
ccompanied by x<sub>3</sub>.&quot;, but still difference between full sence=
nces is unclear, as they have same places. Second alternative, though, pres=
erve the structure of scopes fully =E2=80=94 but forces to introduce compou=
nd predicates:<br><br>&quot;P<sub>1</sub> : x<sub>1</sub> eats/ingests/cons=
umes (transitive verb) x<sub>2</sub>.<br>P<sub>2</sub>: x<sub>1</sub> is wi=
th/accompanies/is a companion of x<sub>m1</sub>, in state/condition/enterpr=
ise P<sub>1</sub> (event/state).<br>P<sub>1&amp;2</sub>: P<sub>1</sub> &amp=
; P<sub>2</sub><br>P<sub>3</sub>:using x<sub>1</sub> uses/employs x<sub>m2<=
/sub> [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting entity, material] for purpos=
e (du&#39;u) P<sub>1&amp;2</sub>.&quot;<br><br>(and vice versa for L2) )<br=
><br>I have to admit what view M2 is influenced by how modals are handled i=
n gua sp=C3=AC and T=C3=B2aq Dz=C5=A9, but also seem to be supported, as I =
mentioned before, by how modal connectives work in lojban. So what do you t=
hink, which view is more correct? Or is there some other interpretation?<sp=
an class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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