Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 08:22:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Dmitry Kourmyshov <dmitry.kourmyshov@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 <CAO7tK2d0nnawT2KDq4m=3bnpu122K5COfc=e3jWd9xhjzUGj1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantics of modals
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 Content preview:  Wow, thank you! But what worries me is what it is unclear
   which places in {fi'o}/BAI predicate correspond to the places of main predicate.
    It somehow parallels the vagueness of tanru. All gismu on which connectives
    in http://lojban.github.io/cll/9/7/ are based have two {nu} places, and when
    used as connectives, it seems what connected predicates fill these places
    in their proper order. When {fi'o}/BAI predicate have {du'u}/{nu} place and
    used as tag, it would be assumed what that place will be filled with the
   abstraction of the main predicate; when tag predicate have an *agentive* place,
    it is most probable what that place would be filled with the agent of the
    main predicate — but all these are guesses and are not described in grammar.
    [...] 
 
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Wow, thank you!

But what worries me is what it is unclear which places in {fi'o}/BAI=20
predicate correspond to the places of main predicate. It somehow parallels=
=20
the vagueness of tanru.

All gismu on which connectives in http://lojban.github.io/cll/9/7/ are=20
based have two {nu} places, and when used as connectives, it seems what=20
connected predicates fill these places in their proper order. When=20
{fi'o}/BAI predicate have {du'u}/{nu} place and used as tag, it would be=20
assumed what that place will be filled with the abstraction of the main=20
predicate; when tag predicate have an *agentive* place, it is most probable=
=20
what that place would be filled with the agent of the main predicate =E2=80=
=94 but=20
all these are guesses and are not described in grammar.=20

And in examples like {mi viska do fi'o kanla le zunle}, where tag predicate=
=20
have no abstraction places, it is unclear how it is connected to the main=
=20
predicate =E2=80=94 because taken literally, claim here can be "I see you. =
(somehow=20
related to is, probably by common context and situation, is the fact what)=
=20
I have an eye" (or even "there is an eye", as nothing indicate who or what=
=20
{lo se kanla} is!).

By the way, why modals were called modals? I know what this is carried over=
=20
from Loglan, and I read Loglan1, but found no explaination beyond what the=
=20
word modal is used not in ordinary logical sense.


=D0=BF=D1=8F=D1=82=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0, 30 =D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=
=80=D1=8F 2015 =D0=B3., 4:36:43 UTC+3 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B7=D0=BE=
=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C xorxes =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=
=D0=B0=D0=BB:
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmyshov <dmitry.k...@gmail.com=
=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>>
>> M1. Modals add additional places to predicate, creating new predicate=20
>> related to basic, but with different place-structure:
>>
> =20
>
>> M2. Modals introduce additional predicates, linked to the main one...=20
>> somehow.
>>
>
> Both are essentially correct.=20
>
> (1) A viska B se pi'o C
> (2) A viska B .i jo'u A pilno C lo nu A viska B
>
> Both (1) and (2) express basically the same relationship between three=20
> things, A, B and C, we could call it "broda": "A broda B C".
> (2) is just a more expanded version than (1) in explaining what "broda"=
=20
> means, one that doesn't use "pi'o". =20
>
> (By the way, am I right in understanding what only those modals which hav=
e=20
>> short BAI form could be used in connectives?)
>>
>
> All tags (I don't call them "modals" because most of them have nothing to=
=20
> do with modality) can be used as connectives, not just BAIs, although the=
=20
> meaning for some of them is unclear (e.g. ".i bau bo")
> =20
>
>> There could be third alternative, or at least, additional factor to=20
>> consider that a recent discussion on #lojban touched. If multiple modals=
=20
>> are present in the same statement, then the order of their appearance co=
uld=20
>> matter, as they modify the main predicate one-by-one, creating scopes:
>>
>
> Of course, but even under M1, when scope matters you still have to take i=
t=20
> into consideration when explaining what relationship the new extended=20
> predicate "broda" expresses.
>
> It should be pointed out that there is no automatic one-rule-fits-all=20
> method of expanding tags, at least until we figure out what the "true"=20
> underlying predicate for each tag should be,=20
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Wow, thank you!<br><br>But what worries me is what it is u=
nclear which places in {fi'o}/BAI predicate correspond to the places of mai=
n predicate. It somehow parallels the vagueness of tanru.<br><br>All gismu =
on which connectives in http://lojban.github.io/cll/9/7/ are based have two=
 {nu} places, and when used as connectives, it seems what connected predica=
tes fill these places in their proper order. When {fi'o}/BAI predicate have=
 {du'u}/{nu} place and used as tag, it would be assumed what that place wil=
l be filled with the abstraction of the main predicate; when tag predicate =
have an <i>agentive</i> place, it is most probable what that place would be=
 filled with the agent of the main predicate =E2=80=94 but all these are gu=
esses and are not described in grammar. <br><br>And in examples like {mi vi=
ska do fi'o kanla le zunle}, where tag predicate have no abstraction places=
, it is unclear how it is connected to the main predicate =E2=80=94 because=
 taken literally, claim here can be "I see you. (somehow related to is, pro=
bably by common context and situation, is the fact what) I have an eye" (or=
 even "there is an eye", as nothing indicate who or what {lo se kanla} is!)=
.<br><br>By the way, why modals were called modals? I know what this is car=
ried over from Loglan, and I read Loglan1, but found no explaination beyond=
 what the word modal is used not in ordinary logical sense.<br><br><br>=D0=
=BF=D1=8F=D1=82=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0, 30 =D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=80=
=D1=8F 2015 =D0=B3., 4:36:43 UTC+3 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B7=D0=BE=D0=
=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C xorxes =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=
=B0=D0=BB:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, J=
an 29, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmyshov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"DjohOcJo3-kJ" rel=
=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">dmitry.k...@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>M1. Mo=
dals add additional places to predicate, creating new predicate related to =
basic, but with different place-structure:<br></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp=
;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">M2. Modals introduce=
 additional predicates, linked to the main one... somehow.</div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Both are essentially correct.&nbsp;</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>(1) A viska B se pi'o C</div><div>(2) A viska B .i jo'u A pilno C l=
o nu A viska B</div><div><br></div><div>Both (1) and (2) express basically =
the same relationship between three things, A, B and C, we could call it "b=
roda": "A broda B C".</div><div>(2) is just a more expanded version than (1=
) in explaining what "broda" means, one that doesn't use "pi'o". &nbsp;</di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">(By the wa=
y, am I right in understanding what only those modals which have short BAI =
form could be used in connectives?)<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>All tags (I don't call them "modals" because most of them have nothing t=
o do with modality) can be used as connectives, not just BAIs, although the=
 meaning for some of them is unclear (e.g. ".i bau bo")</div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">There could be third alt=
ernative, or at least, additional factor to consider that a recent discussi=
on on #lojban touched. If multiple modals are present in the same statement=
, then the order of their appearance could matter, as they modify the main =
predicate one-by-one, creating scopes:<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Of course, but even under M1, when scope matters you still have to ta=
ke it into consideration when explaining what relationship the new extended=
 predicate "broda" expresses.</div><div><br></div><div>It should be pointed=
 out that there is no automatic one-rule-fits-all method of expanding tags,=
 at least until we figure out what the "true" underlying predicate for each=
 tag should be,&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes</div><div><=
br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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