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[2a00:1450:400c:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o9si476404wiw.0.2015.01.30.09.10.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::236; Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id l61so28265202wev.13 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:10:38 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.157.65 with SMTP id wk1mr14388972wjb.122.1422637833969; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:10:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.86.200 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:10:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5b7e8a06-fb08-49c5-8726-dfd32a21699f@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:10:13 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantics of modals To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122e9b0bce5fe050de1ae6d X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: 2015-01-30 19:22 GMT+03:00 Dmitry Kourmyshov : > Wow, thank you! > > But what worries me is what it is unclear which places in {fi'o}/BAI > predicate correspond to the places of main predicate. It somehow parallels > the vagueness of tanru. > [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.212.189 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders --089e0122e9b0bce5fe050de1ae6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-01-30 19:22 GMT+03:00 Dmitry Kourmyshov : > Wow, thank you! > > But what worries me is what it is unclear which places in {fi'o}/BAI > predicate correspond to the places of main predicate. It somehow parallel= s > the vagueness of tanru. > Because a better wordlist should clearly specify to which place of the main clause it refers to. Personally I think that it always refers either to the main clause itself ot to the x1 unless specified otherwise (and by analysing the ma'oste I found no such "otherwise" cases but that's only my formalisation). > All gismu on which connectives in http://lojban.github.io/cll/9/7/ are > based have two {nu} places, and when used as connectives, it seems what > connected predicates fill these places in their proper order. When > {fi'o}/BAI predicate have {du'u}/{nu} place and used as tag, it would be > assumed what that place will be filled with the abstraction of the main > predicate; when tag predicate have an *agentive* place, it is most > probable what that place would be filled with the agent of the main > predicate =E2=80=94 but all these are guesses and are not described in gr= ammar. > > And in examples like {mi viska do fi'o kanla le zunle}, where tag > predicate have no abstraction places, it is unclear how it is connected t= o > the main predicate =E2=80=94 because taken literally, claim here can be "= I see you. > (somehow related to is, probably by common context and situation, is the > fact what) I have an eye" (or even "there is an eye", as nothing indicate > who or what {lo se kanla} is!). > > By the way, why modals were called modals? I know what this is carried > over from Loglan, and I read Loglan1, but found no explaination beyond wh= at > the word modal is used not in ordinary logical sense. > > > =D0=BF=D1=8F=D1=82=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0, 30 =D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B2=D0=B0= =D1=80=D1=8F 2015 =D0=B3., 4:36:43 UTC+3 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B7=D0= =BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C xorxes =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1= =81=D0=B0=D0=BB: > >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmyshov > > wrote: >> >>> >>> M1. Modals add additional places to predicate, creating new predicate >>> related to basic, but with different place-structure: >>> >> >> >>> M2. Modals introduce additional predicates, linked to the main one... >>> somehow. >>> >> >> Both are essentially correct. >> >> (1) A viska B se pi'o C >> (2) A viska B .i jo'u A pilno C lo nu A viska B >> >> Both (1) and (2) express basically the same relationship between three >> things, A, B and C, we could call it "broda": "A broda B C". >> (2) is just a more expanded version than (1) in explaining what "broda" >> means, one that doesn't use "pi'o". >> >> (By the way, am I right in understanding what only those modals which >>> have short BAI form could be used in connectives?) >>> >> >> All tags (I don't call them "modals" because most of them have nothing t= o >> do with modality) can be used as connectives, not just BAIs, although th= e >> meaning for some of them is unclear (e.g. ".i bau bo") >> >> >>> There could be third alternative, or at least, additional factor to >>> consider that a recent discussion on #lojban touched. If multiple modal= s >>> are present in the same statement, then the order of their appearance c= ould >>> matter, as they modify the main predicate one-by-one, creating scopes: >>> >> >> Of course, but even under M1, when scope matters you still have to take >> it into consideration when explaining what relationship the new extended >> predicate "broda" expresses. >> >> It should be pointed out that there is no automatic one-rule-fits-all >> method of expanding tags, at least until we figure out what the "true" >> underlying predicate for each tag should be, >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0122e9b0bce5fe050de1ae6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-01-30 19:22 GMT+03:00 Dmitry Kourmyshov <dmitry.kourmys= hov@gmail.com>:
Wow, thank you!

But what worries me is what it is unclear whic= h places in {fi'o}/BAI predicate correspond to the places of main predi= cate. It somehow parallels the vagueness of tanru.

Because a better wordlist should clearly specify to which= place of the main clause it refers to.
Personally I think that i= t always refers either to the main clause itself ot to the x1 unless specif= ied otherwise (and by analysing the ma'oste I found no such "other= wise" cases but that's only my formalisation).


All gismu on which con= nectives in = http://lojban.github.io/cll/9/7/ are based have two {nu} places, and wh= en used as connectives, it seems what connected predicates fill these place= s in their proper order. When {fi'o}/BAI predicate have {du'u}/{nu}= place and used as tag, it would be assumed what that place will be filled = with the abstraction of the main predicate; when tag predicate have an a= gentive place, it is most probable what that place would be filled with= the agent of the main predicate =E2=80=94 but all these are guesses and ar= e not described in grammar.

And in examples like {mi viska do fi= 9;o kanla le zunle}, where tag predicate have no abstraction places, it is = unclear how it is connected to the main predicate =E2=80=94 because taken l= iterally, claim here can be "I see you. (somehow related to is, probab= ly by common context and situation, is the fact what) I have an eye" (= or even "there is an eye", as nothing indicate who or what {lo se= kanla} is!).

By the way, why modals were called modals? I know what= this is carried over from Loglan, and I read Loglan1, but found no explain= ation beyond what the word modal is used not in ordinary logical sense.
=

=D0=BF=D1=8F=D1=82=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0, 30 =D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B2= =D0=B0=D1=80=D1=8F 2015 =D0=B3., 4:36:43 UTC+3 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0= =B7=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C xorxes =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0= =B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB:

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Dmitry Kourmyshov <dmitry.k...@gmail.com>= wrote:

M1. Modals a= dd additional places to predicate, creating new predicate related to basic,= but with different place-structure:
=C2=A0
M2. Modals introduce addit= ional predicates, linked to the main one... somehow.

Both are essentially correct.=C2=A0

(1) A viska B se pi'o C
(2) A viska B .i jo'u A pilno C= lo nu A viska B

Both (1) and (2) express basicall= y the same relationship between three things, A, B and C, we could call it = "broda": "A broda B C".
(2) is just a more ex= panded version than (1) in explaining what "broda" means, one tha= t doesn't use "pi'o". =C2=A0

(By the way, am I right in understa= nding what only those modals which have short BAI form could be used in con= nectives?)

All tags (I don't = call them "modals" because most of them have nothing to do with m= odality) can be used as connectives, not just BAIs, although the meaning fo= r some of them is unclear (e.g. ".i bau bo")
=C2=A0
There could be third alte= rnative, or at least, additional factor to consider that a recent discussio= n on #lojban touched. If multiple modals are present in the same statement,= then the order of their appearance could matter, as they modify the main p= redicate one-by-one, creating scopes:

=
Of course, but even under M1, when scope matters you still have to tak= e it into consideration when explaining what relationship the new extended = predicate "broda" expresses.

It should b= e pointed out that there is no automatic one-rule-fits-all method of expand= ing tags, at least until we figure out what the "true" underlying= predicate for each tag should be,=C2=A0

mu'o = mi'e xorxes

--
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--
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