Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235;
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 13:15:13 -0500
From: Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <8D88F3F66155423D8E12851A21CA65DB@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2fRc9CUtX1GWZi4_77q0Ao_v5cApinXpEv8kDARUyeoDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54C80768.7020101@gmail.com>
 <CAO7tK2eYD0OF5t70RoZfoV1H7n+fnQaurofcvGVStj-t7FBydQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ccebc81f-ae84-40ef-9177-703a93c223d9@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7tK2dbSSm=HZ2dcznzSmiXNqeBqM8n_GEsSvojUPY3YVc9wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A1362A1499624C6A811E1805424FD6D0@gmail.com>
 <CAO7tK2fBk25gK3GT6Nj6OrnREYaWg7coX0pqp4PxYa1ND=iX_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E34D85D50784B048209C3E055351E08@gmail.com>
 <CAO7tK2eaP56de-ywMnDSP_JCc=_gZ1BxNPkua9Xn_oGmFU9Okw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54C9193B.4000808@gmx.de>
 <CAO7tK2fRc9CUtX1GWZi4_77q0Ao_v5cApinXpEv8kDARUyeoDw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {porsi}
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="54cbca31_260d8c4a_123e"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: 0.8
X-Spam_score_int: 8
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 
 Content preview:  cinri nuncasnu .i mi te sidbo lo drata mupli .i mu'a da'i
   ca lo cabdei mi pu klama lo mi briju ca lo cerni gi'e ba bo xrukla lo mi zdani
    gi'e ba bo xrukla lo mi briju .i mi ponse lo pa briju .i mi na ponse lo briju
    xi pa .e lo briju xi re .i ja'o lo bi'unai briju cu xo moi lo se klama be
    mi [...] 
 
 Content analysis details:   (0.8 points, 5.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
  0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED          ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked.
                             See
                             http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block
                              for more information.
                             [URIs: gmx.de]
  2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL    RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org
                             [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org.	IN]
                             [A]
 -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2      RBL: Average reputation (+2)
                             [209.85.218.64 listed in wl.mailspike.net]
  0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail
                             domains are different
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
                             (durka42[at]gmail.com)
  0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED   No valid author signature, adsp_override is
                             CUSTOM_MED
  0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
                             [score: 0.0000]
 -0.1 DKIM_VALID             Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
  0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid
  0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and
                             EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different

--54cbca31_260d8c4a_123e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

cinri nuncasnu .i mi te sidbo lo drata mupli =20

.i mu'a da'i ca lo cabdei mi pu klama lo mi briju ca lo cerni gi'e ba bo xr=
ukla lo mi zdani gi'e ba bo xrukla lo mi briju
.i mi ponse lo pa briju .i mi na ponse lo briju xi pa .e lo briju xi re
.i ja'o lo bi'unai briju cu xo moi lo se klama be mi

- mu'o mi'e la durkavore =20


On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:

> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:15 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de (mailto:seladwa@=
gmx.de)> wrote:
> > =20
> > Do we agree that {ro da zo'u da jo'u da mintu da}? =20
> =20
> "ro da zo'u da jo'u da du da", yes.
>  =20
> > In the abstract, the letter "o" exists only once, just like there is on=
ly one number "1". =20
> =20
> =20
> At the most abstract level, yes, but we talk about letter instances all t=
he time.
>  =20
> > When speaking abstractly about the letters in a word, there would then =
however be two of the same "thing", and that would mean there are only dist=
inct four referents.
> =20
> =20
> But that's not the most common way of talking about the letters of a word=
. If we were to talk like that we would most likely talk about "different l=
etters", not just "letters".
>  =20
> > Talking about instances of the abstract letter is the only easy way out=
 of this, but then there still remains the slight problem that both of thos=
e instances are identical to one another. They differ in nothing, except - =
you might argue - in the property {lo ka du ma kau}. =20
> =20
> =20
> Well, their most important difference is their position the word. One imp=
ortant difference is that one carries stress and the other one doesn't.
>   =20
> > However, does this solve the problem? The word "brodo" is spelled corre=
ctly no matter which of those two "o" letters you place first, and I think =
that's because there aren't two distinct "o" letters, since there is nothin=
g really to tell them apart.
> =20
> But what's the problem? If you switch around the wheels of a car, you sti=
ll have the same car. The differences among the wheels are mostly irrelevan=
t. (I know they can be relevant, but let's say they are all brand new, or p=
ick a better example.) You can still talk about "the left front wheel" even=
 though its molecules are not the same molecules they used to be. In the ca=
se of the "o" you don't even have to worry about molecules, "the first o" i=
s just "the first o". You can say that it carries the stress, whether you h=
ave switched it or not, whatever that may mean. =20
> =20
> > If you say that {me'o .obu} has two referents, which you must if you cl=
aim {ci moi lo mu lerfu}, then you claim that the expression "o" exists mor=
e than once. This is fine by me, but it requires a special domain to work, =
one in which there are only instances of letters (even though each instance=
 can itself be a kind). I would probably feel more at ease (for a general s=
olution) if it involved {mupli}, but then the aforementioned problem still =
remains: The two instances differ in nothing, and either of them can be the=
 third letter in "brodo". And these so-called instances of the letters are =
still very abstract, since words aren't always written down; they can simpl=
y be in our minds.
> =20
> But they do differ in some things. =20
> =20
> > This intricacy is what kept me from proposing a solution similar to you=
rs yesterday (I had thought about the expression {by jo'u ry jo'u re boi .o=
bu jo'u dy} and found it very strange (with or without {me'o})!).
> =20
> I think it's fine, although you may want to do "pa boi by jo'u pa boi ry =
jo'u pa boi dy jo'u re boi ,o bu" to make it more uniform.
> =20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes  =20
> =20
> -- =20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go=
ogle Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l=
ojban/pL3yVycaRSQ/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com)=
.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com).
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--54cbca31_260d8c4a_123e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline


                <div>cinri nuncasnu .i mi te sidbo lo drata mupli
                </div><div><br></div><div>.i mu'a da'i ca lo cabdei mi pu k=
lama lo mi briju ca lo cerni gi'e ba bo xrukla lo mi zdani gi'e ba bo xrukl=
a lo mi briju</div><div>.i mi ponse lo pa briju .i mi na ponse lo briju xi =
pa .e lo briju xi re</div><div>.i ja'o lo bi'unai briju cu xo moi lo se kla=
ma be mi</div><div><br></div><div>- mu'o mi'e la durkavore</div>
                <div></div>
                =20
                <p style=3D"color: #A0A0A8;">On Wednesday, January 28, 2015=
 at 12:57 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:</p>
                <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;=
border-width:1px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
                    <span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br><div>On W=
ed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:15 PM, selpa'i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>
Do we agree that {ro da zo'u da jo'u da mintu da}? </div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>"ro da zo'u da jo'u da du da", yes.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div>In the abstract, the letter "o" exists only on=
ce, just like there is only one number "1". </div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>At the most abstract level, yes, but we talk about letter instances=
 all the time.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>When sp=
eaking abstractly about the letters in a word, there would then however be =
two of the same "thing", and that would mean there are only distinct four r=
eferents.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But that's not the most com=
mon way of talking about the letters of a word. If we were to talk like tha=
t we would most likely talk about "different letters", not just "letters".<=
/div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div> Talking about instanc=
es of the abstract letter is the only easy way out of this, but then there =
still remains the slight problem that both of those instances are identical=
 to one another. They differ in nothing, except - you might argue - in the =
property {lo ka du ma kau}. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, th=
eir most important difference is their position the word. One important dif=
ference is that one carries stress and the other one doesn't.</div><div>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>However, does this solve the =
problem? The word "brodo" is spelled correctly no matter which of those two=
 "o" letters you place first, and I think that's because there aren't two d=
istinct "o" letters, since there is nothing really to tell them apart.<br><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But what's the problem? If you switch=
 around the wheels of a car, you still have the same car. The differences a=
mong the wheels are mostly irrelevant. (I know they can be relevant, but le=
t's say they are all brand new, or pick a better example.) You can still ta=
lk about "the left front wheel" even though its molecules are not the same =
molecules they used to be. In the case of the "o" you don't even have to wo=
rry about molecules, "the first o" is just "the first o". You can say that =
it carries the stress, whether you have switched it or not, whatever that m=
ay mean.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
If you say that {me'o .obu} has two referents, which you must if you claim =
{ci moi lo mu lerfu}, then you claim that the expression "o" exists more th=
an once. This is fine by me, but it requires a special domain to work, one =
in which there are only instances of letters (even though each instance can=
 itself be a kind). I would probably feel more at ease (for a general solut=
ion) if it involved {mupli}, but then the aforementioned problem still rema=
ins: The two instances differ in nothing, and either of them can be the thi=
rd letter in "brodo". And these so-called instances of the letters are stil=
l very abstract, since words aren't always written down; they can simply be=
 in our minds.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But they do differ=
 in some things.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
This intricacy is what kept me from proposing a solution similar to yours y=
esterday (I had thought about the expression {by jo'u ry jo'u re boi .obu j=
o'u dy} and found it very strange (with or without {me'o})!).<br></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it's fine, although you may want to do=
 "pa boi by jo'u pa boi ry jo'u pa boi dy jo'u re boi ,o bu" to make it mor=
e uniform.</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes&nbsp;</div></div></div=
></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog=
le Groups "lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/=
d/topic/lojban/pL3yVycaRSQ/unsubscribe">https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l=
ojban/pL3yVycaRSQ/unsubscribe</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to <a href=
=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></span>
                =20
                =20
                =20
                =20
                </blockquote>
                =20
                <div>
                    <br>
                </div>
           =20

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--54cbca31_260d8c4a_123e--