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[2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i10si488687wiz.0.2015.02.07.09.26.43 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Feb 2015 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::234; Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id h11so8814686wiw.1 for ; Sat, 07 Feb 2015 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.37.33 with SMTP id v1mr7189892wij.76.1423330003076; Sat, 07 Feb 2015 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.56.20 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Feb 2015 09:26:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <0CD5A578A47549238B8B046A01B8846C@gmail.com> <54BCFC70.2010805@selpahi.de> <54BE4E4F.1060204@gmail.com> <54BEE656.9090807@gmail.com> <54BFC0F4.1010600@gmail.com> <54D31D5E.6070907@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 14:26:42 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] nu ningau so'u se jbovlaste / updating a few jbovlaste entries From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f6476f33b4b6f050e82d7e6 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 1:47 PM, And Rosta wrote: > > On 6 Feb 2015 21:10, "Jorge Llambías" wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:36 AM, And Rosta wrote: > >> > >> So although you're not sure what it is, you have an idea of what it is > that is good enough for you to know what it isn't? > > > > Yes, but that's not saying much. I know it's not a dishwasher or a lawn > mower for example. > > Still, you also think you know it's not what I think it is, which I think > requires a fuller degree of knowledge than knowing it's not a dishwasher > does. > I suspect rather than think I know. I only know that I know nothing. It just seems extremely unlikely that a finite set of rules can be a complete description of what we call a natlang. 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IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.212.191 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jjllambias[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different --e89a8f6476f33b4b6f050e82d7e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 1:47 PM, And Rosta wrote: > > On 6 Feb 2015 21:10, "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:36 AM, And Rosta wrote: > >> > >> So although you're not sure what it is, you have an idea of what it is > that is good enough for you to know what it isn't? > > > > Yes, but that's not saying much. I know it's not a dishwasher or a lawn > mower for example. > > Still, you also think you know it's not what I think it is, which I think > requires a fuller degree of knowledge than knowing it's not a dishwasher > does. > I suspect rather than think I know. I only know that I know nothing. It just seems extremely unlikely that a finite set of rules can be a complete description of what we call a natlang. > > I can accept that the game of chess is fully described by its rules. Bu= t > even for an idiolect, it doesn't seem likely that a finite set of rules > would describe it, > > Do have a sense of where the problem lies? > We don't have an a priori definition of what English is, so any set of rules purporting to be it is subject to be bettered by a new set of rules, by the usual mechanisms of science. > You accept that some explications are better than others, but think no > single explication can be solely right. So could you accept that a family > of similar explications could be right? > > What about Lojban? What's the relationship between it and an explication > of it? Is it more like English or more like chess? > Lojban design is more like chess, but if and when it becomes an actual human language, it will (I think inevitably) stop being like chess and be more like English. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f6476f33b4b6f050e82d7e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 1:47 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6 Feb 2015 21:10, "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:=
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:36 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So although you're not sure what it is, you have an idea of wh= at it is that is good enough for you to know what it isn't?
>
> Yes, but that's not saying much. I know it's not a dishwasher = or a lawn mower for example.

Still, you also think you know it's not what I th= ink it is, which I think requires a fuller degree of knowledge than knowing= it's not a dishwasher does.

I suspect rather than= think I know. I only know that I know nothing. It just seems extremely unl= ikely that a finite set of rules can be a complete description of what we c= all a natlang.
=C2=A0

> I can accept that the game of chess is fully described by its rules. B= ut even for an idiolect, it doesn't seem likely that a finite set of ru= les would describe it,

Do have a sense of where the problem lies?

We don't have an a priori definition of what English is, so = any set of rules purporting to be it is subject to be bettered by a new set= of rules, by the usual mechanisms of science.
=C2=A0

You accept that some explications are better than others, bu= t think no single explication can be solely right. So could you accept that= a family of similar explications could be right?

What about Lojban? What's the relationship between it an= d an explication of it? Is it more like English or more like chess?

Lojban design is more like chess, but if and when it becomes = an actual human language, it will (I think inevitably) stop being like ches= s and be more like English.

mu'o mi'e xorx= es

--
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