Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 03:09:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Dmitry Kourmyshov <dmitry.kourmyshov@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <ee6126b2-57ba-4085-89c2-fd5c87499672@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] How {be} works in regard of places of modified selbri?
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Does {be} set new defaults for places linked to, or modify places structure=
?

First, I=E2=80=99ll list some assumptions and terminology:

   - A1. Slightly misleadingly, selbri correspond to the formal logic=20
   notion of predicate, and bridi to proposition.
   - A2. There are default values for places of selbri. If there are no=20
   sumti present for given place, it is have its default value. Most often =
it=20
   is {zo'e}, but many {gismu} have other defaults for some places (ma'a {l=
o=20
   tefargi} is air).
   - A3. Pro-bridi, both anaphoric and assignable, are selbri with defaults=
=20
   for their places corresponding to the arguments to their antecedents. Am=
ong=20
   other things, this allows for tersu'i anaphora like {lo sego'i} selectin=
g=20
   the default value of go'i x2, being the actual x2 of the previous bridi.
   - A4. {du'u} creates bridi abstraction, and {ka} creates selbri=20
   abstraction*. {kai'u} creates immediate selbri and is equivalent to {me'=
au=20
   lo ka}. They work differently from pro-bridi, not changing the defaults =
of=20
   resulting selbri, but allowing for rearranging of place structure. Only=
=20
   places filled with {ce'u} end up being places of the resulting selbri;=
=20
   values of all other places, including defaluts, are incorporated in the=
=20
   meaning of selbri itself.

Examples:

   - E1. {fagri} imply {zo'e fagri zo'e lo fagri a lo vacri}
   - E2. {ti fagri fi lo klirnflori .i ta go'i} imply {ti fagri zo'e lo=20
   klirnflori .i ta fagri zo'e lo klirnflori}
   - E3. {ti kai'u ce'u fagri fi lo klirnflori kei cei broda. i ta broda}=
=20
   imply {ti broda. i ta broda}, broda being unary predicate created by kai=
'u=20
   =E2=80=94 note the absence of {zo'e}.

Now finally the questions: Are my assumptions right? If they are, are {be}=
=20
working like pro-sumti or more like {kai'u}**? That is, what places have=20
selbri created by linking arguments to the basic selbri with {be}, and what=
=20
are their default values?

Example: Does {fagri be fi lo klirnflori} have following places (=3D means=
=20
default value):

   - F1. x1 =3D zo'e, x2 =3D zo'e, x3 =3D lo klirnflori
   - F2. x1 =3D zo'e, x2 =3D zo'e. {lo klirnflori} is incorporated into mea=
ning=20
   of resulting selbri itself.
   - F3. Some other variant?

* It seems that there was historical disagreement about this; my=20
interpretation is close to=20
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DTsani%27s+Interpretations:=
+Abstractors=20
in respect to {du'u} and {ka}.

** Place structure modification and rearrangement with {be} is favored by=
=20
http://mw.lojban.org/lmw/Advanced_Place_Structure_Mangling

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><p>Does {be} set new defaults for places linked to, or mod=
ify places structure?</p>

<p>First, I=E2=80=99ll list some assumptions and terminology:</p>

<ul><li>A1. Slightly misleadingly, selbri correspond to the formal logic no=
tion of predicate, and bridi to proposition.</li><li>A2. There are default =
values for places of selbri. If there are no=20
sumti present for given place, it is have its default value. Most often=20
it is {zo'e}, but many {gismu} have other defaults for some places (ma'a
 {lo tefargi} is air).</li><li>A3. Pro-bridi, both anaphoric and assignable=
, are selbri with=20
defaults for their places corresponding to the arguments to their=20
antecedents. Among other things, this allows for tersu'i anaphora like=20
{lo sego'i} selecting the default value of go'i x2, being the actual x2=20
of the previous bridi.</li><li>A4. {du'u} creates bridi abstraction, and {k=
a} creates selbri=20
abstraction*. {kai'u} creates immediate selbri and is equivalent to=20
{me'au lo ka}. They work differently from pro-bridi, not changing the=20
defaults of resulting selbri, but allowing for rearranging of place=20
structure. Only places filled with {ce'u} end up being places of the=20
resulting selbri; values of all other places, including defaluts, are=20
incorporated in the meaning of selbri itself.</li></ul>

<p>Examples:</p>

<ul><li>E1. {fagri} imply {zo'e fagri zo'e lo fagri a lo vacri}</li><li>E2.=
 {ti fagri fi lo klirnflori .i ta go'i} imply
{ti fagri zo'e lo klirnflori
.i ta fagri zo'e lo klirnflori}</li><li>E3. {ti kai'u ce'u fagri fi lo klir=
nflori kei cei broda. i ta broda} imply
{ti broda. i ta broda}, broda being unary predicate created by kai'u =E2=80=
=94 note the absence of {zo'e}.</li></ul>

<p>Now finally the questions:
Are my assumptions right? If they are, are {be} working like pro-sumti=20
or more like {kai'u}**? That is, what places have selbri created by=20
linking arguments to the basic selbri with {be}, and what are their=20
default values?</p>

<p>Example:
Does {fagri be fi lo klirnflori} have following places (=3D means default v=
alue):</p>

<ul><li>F1. x1 =3D zo'e, x2 =3D zo'e, x3 =3D lo klirnflori</li><li>F2. x1 =
=3D zo'e, x2 =3D zo'e. {lo klirnflori} is incorporated into meaning of resu=
lting selbri itself.</li><li>F3. Some other variant?</li></ul><p>* It seems=
 that there was historical disagreement about this; my interpretation is cl=
ose to http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DTsani%27s+Interpret=
ations:+Abstractors in respect to {du'u} and {ka}.<br></p><p>** Place struc=
ture modification and rearrangement with {be} is favored by http://mw.lojba=
n.org/lmw/Advanced_Place_Structure_Mangling<br></p></div>

<p></p>

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