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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:30:04 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK Section: Non-logical Connectives
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 5:01 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:49 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Non-logical+Connectives
>>
>> mi joi ry. ze'a casnu lo lijda ctuca tadji
>> Me and R have been discussing religious teaching methods.
>>
>>
>   No, because lo casnu is specifically defined as being a mass, which
> "joi" creates
>
Here I agree, casnu1 only makes sense nondistributively, so {joi} is
clearly correct. If you accept that {jo'u} builds lo-groups (see my next
paragraph), then {jo'u} would also be correct, but "lazily" so. va'i it's
correct because it always is, not because it's really the right tool for
the job in this case.

>
>> Isn't this example wrong?
>>
>> What about the other two examples? Shouldn't {jo'u} or {ce} work better
>> here:
>>
>> la .djan. joi la .pitr. cu re mei
>> John and Peter are two.
>>
>>
>   Again, no, because lo remei is defined as a mass.  You could use ce to
> make lo se remei, though.  And I believe that la djan jo'u la pitr would
> actually be two pamei, not a remei
>
Here at least in the usual IRC dialect I disagree. We've identified the "lo
plural type" as being constructed by {jo'u}, since otherwise {jo'u} seemed
rather useless and because we didn't have any other way to refer to this
type that we literally use in almost every sentence. For similar reasons
mei1 includes lo-groups in the IRC dialect. I have forgotten whether it
continuous to include masses. If it doesn't then we need a {brode} such
that {loi PA broda cu brode li PA}.

>
>
>
>> la jegvon cu cevni le xriso joi le xebro joi le muslo
>> Jehovah is the god of the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims.
>>
>>   You could use jo'u here, yes.
>
Here either seems fine to me.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 5:01 PM, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><spa=
n class=3D"">On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:49 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">glek=
i.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sectio=
n%3A+Non-logical+Connectives" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/=
BPFK+Section%3A+Non-logical+Connectives</a><br><br>mi joi ry. ze&#39;a casn=
u lo lijda ctuca tadji</div><div>Me and R have been discussing religious te=
aching methods.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></spa=
n><div>=C2=A0 No, because lo casnu is specifically defined as being a mass,=
 which &quot;joi&quot; creates</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Her=
e I agree, casnu1 only makes sense nondistributively, so {joi} is clearly c=
orrect. If you accept that {jo&#39;u} builds lo-groups (see my next paragra=
ph), then {jo&#39;u} would also be correct, but &quot;lazily&quot; so. va&#=
39;i it&#39;s correct because it always is, not because it&#39;s really the=
 right tool for the job in this case.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div>=
<div><br></div><div>Isn&#39;t this example wrong?</div><div><br></div><div>=
What about the other two examples? Shouldn&#39;t {jo&#39;u} or {ce} work be=
tter here:</div><div><br></div><div><div>la .djan. joi la .pitr. cu re mei<=
/div><div>John and Peter are two.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div></span><div>=C2=A0 Again, no, because lo remei is define=
d as a mass.=C2=A0 You could use ce to make lo se remei, though.=C2=A0 And =
I believe that la djan jo&#39;u la pitr would actually be two pamei, not a =
remei</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Here at least in the usual I=
RC dialect I disagree. We&#39;ve identified the &quot;lo plural type&quot; =
as being constructed by {jo&#39;u}, since otherwise {jo&#39;u} seemed rathe=
r useless and because we didn&#39;t have any other way to refer to this typ=
e that we literally use in almost every sentence. For similar reasons mei1 =
includes lo-groups in the IRC dialect. I have forgotten whether it continuo=
us to include masses. If it doesn&#39;t then we need a {brode} such that {l=
oi PA broda cu brode li PA}.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span clas=
s=3D""><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><div></div><div>la jegvon cu cevni le xriso joi le xebro j=
oi le muslo</div><div>Jehovah is the god of the Christians, the Jews and th=
e Muslims.</div></div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p></font></span></blockquote></span></div>=C2=A0 You could use jo&#39;=
u here, yes.</div></div></blockquote><div>Here either seems fine to me. <br=
><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div></div></div=
>

<p></p>

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