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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:30:36 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgK9Lc4uK3dv+CYys19vjp40KGr2zCsCHAn5_Hdgw4Nkdg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK Section: Non-logical Connectives
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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>
> I don't see what's "lazy" about a plural satisfying a predicate
> collectively.
>
It's just not specifying what sort of plural is being used, which is very
slightly lazy. It's not any particular concern.

>
>          Isn't this example wrong?
>>
>>         What about the other two examples? Shouldn't {jo'u} or {ce} work
>>         better here:
>>
>>         la .djan. joi la .pitr. cu re mei
>>         John and Peter are two.
>>
>>
>>        Again, no, because lo remei is defined as a mass.  You could use
>>     ce to make lo se remei, though.  And I believe that la djan jo'u la
>>     pitr would actually be two pamei, not a remei
>>
>> Here at least in the usual IRC dialect I disagree. We've identified the
>> "lo plural type" as being constructed by {jo'u}, since otherwise {jo'u}
>> seemed rather useless and because we didn't have any other way to refer
>> to this type that we literally use in almost every sentence.
>>
>
> This is not an IRC invention; it's been in the BPFK pages for over 10
> years, thanks to xorxes. Credit where credit is due.
>
Fair enough.

>
>  For similar
>> reasons mei1 includes lo-groups in the IRC dialect. I have forgotten
>> whether it continuous to include masses.
>>
>
> Unless you are proposing a polymorphic/ambiguous {mei}, this doesn't make
> a lot of sense. {mei} let's you say how many referents a sumti has, it
> doesn't matter what you put in the x1 - {lo ci cinfo} has three referents,
> while {lo [pa] gunma be lo ci cinfo} has one referent.
>
While that is how I've been viewing it for some time, you can see from the
discussion here that the definition at least suggests that it is for saying
how many members each mass has. Given that "how many referents a sumti has"
wasn't really a thing in the language before xorlo (as far as I can tell),
this should probably get clearly documented on the website. Preferably in a
fashion which makes it reachable from the "how to use xorlo" page.

>
>  If it doesn't then we need a
>> {brode} such that {loi PA broda cu brode li PA}.
>>
>
> See {cmimei}.
>
Good enough I suppose. It really doesn't have anything inherently to do
with sets, though, so that's a bit annoying.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don&#39;t see what&#39;s &quot;lazy&quot; about a plural satisfying a pre=
dicate collectively.<span class=3D""><br></span></blockquote><div>It&#39;s =
just not specifying what sort of plural is being used, which is very slight=
ly lazy. It&#39;s not any particular concern. <br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Isn&#39;t this example wrong?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What about the other two examples? Shouldn&#39;=
t {jo&#39;u} or {ce} work<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 better here:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 la .djan. joi la .pitr. cu re mei<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 John and Peter are two.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Again, no, because lo remei is defined as a mass=
.=C2=A0 You could use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ce to make lo se remei, though.=C2=A0 And I believe that la d=
jan jo&#39;u la<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pitr would actually be two pamei, not a remei<br>
<br>
Here at least in the usual IRC dialect I disagree. We&#39;ve identified the=
<br>
&quot;lo plural type&quot; as being constructed by {jo&#39;u}, since otherw=
ise {jo&#39;u}<br>
seemed rather useless and because we didn&#39;t have any other way to refer=
<br>
to this type that we literally use in almost every sentence.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
This is not an IRC invention; it&#39;s been in the BPFK pages for over 10 y=
ears, thanks to xorxes. Credit where credit is due.<span class=3D""><br></s=
pan></blockquote><div>Fair enough. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
For similar<br>
reasons mei1 includes lo-groups in the IRC dialect. I have forgotten<br>
whether it continuous to include masses.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Unless you are proposing a polymorphic/ambiguous {mei}, this doesn&#39;t ma=
ke a lot of sense. {mei} let&#39;s you say how many referents a sumti has, =
it doesn&#39;t matter what you put in the x1 - {lo ci cinfo} has three refe=
rents, while {lo [pa] gunma be lo ci cinfo} has one referent.<span class=3D=
""><br></span></blockquote><div>While that is how I&#39;ve been viewing it =
for some time, you can see from the discussion here that the definition at =
least suggests that it is for saying how many members each mass has. Given =
that &quot;how many referents a sumti has&quot; wasn&#39;t really a thing i=
n the language before xorlo (as far as I can tell), this should probably ge=
t clearly documented on the website. Preferably in a fashion which makes it=
 reachable from the &quot;how to use xorlo&quot; page.<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If it doesn&#39;t then we need a<br>
{brode} such that {loi PA broda cu brode li PA}.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
See {cmimei}.<br></blockquote><div>Good enough I suppose. It really doesn&#=
39;t have anything inherently to do with sets, though, so that&#39;s a bit =
annoying.<br><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div=
><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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