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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 13:26:05 +0100
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban] {detri}
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=E2=80=A2 detri: x1 is the date [day,{week},{month},year] of event/state x2=
, at=20
location x3, by calendar x4 =E2=80=94 (time units in x1 are specified as nu=
mbers=20
separated by pi'e or are unit values massified with joi);
=E2=80=A2 tcika: x1 [hours, {minutes}, {seconds}] is the time/hour of=20
state/event x2 on day x3 at location x4 =E2=80=94 (time units in x1 are=20
specified as numbers separated by pi'e or are unit values massified with=20
joi);


Those definitions do not make very clear what kind of argument is=20
expected by detri-x1 and tcika-x1. In actual usage, those argument slots=20
are used the following way:

=E2=80=A2 { .i detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu pi'e re mu }
=E2=80=A2 { li pa no pi'e vo no cu tcika fo mi }

However, does the {detri} sentence actually have the intended meaning?=20
Isn't {me'o} more appropriate than {li} for expressing dates?

The problem is the following:

As far as I can tell, {li} takes a numeric expression/symbol, and=20
evaluates it (using the specified numeric base or otherwise the most=20
likely one according to the context), returning a pure number (the=20
abstract number represented by the numeric expression). So, {li pa re=20
ju'u bi} is similar to {lo mekna'u=20
<http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u> be me'o pa re bei li bi}=20
(the abstract number represented by the digit string "12" in base eight,=20
which is equal to ten in base ten).

In a similar fashion, I'd expect detri-x1 to parallels mekna'u=20
<http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u>-x2 (the expression/symbol),=20
while detri-x4 would parallel mekna'u=20
<http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u>-x3 (the system whereby the=20
expression is evaluated/interpreted).

In sentences such as { detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu pi'e re mu }, it=20
seems that the date expression "2008:5:25" is first evaluated into a=20
pure number (using some unspecified base), and then given to detri-x1,=20
in which case detri-x4 seems to become completely useless, as it cannot=20
be applied to any numeric expression (as all is given to it as input is=20
a pure number). { detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu pi'e re mu fo ko'a }=20
would then be about as meaningful as { li ze no no no no no cu detri fo=20
ko'a }.

An alternative to using {me'o} instead of {li} could be giving a number=20
sequence to detri-x1, as exemplified below:
=E2=80=A2 { li re no pa mu ce'o li ci ce'o li so cu detri lo cabdei fo ko'a=
 }

The drawback to this is that it's two syllables longer than the li+pi'e=20
usage (and one syllable longer than me'o+pi'e), but the upsides are that=20
1) the job of evaluating/interpreting the date expression is clearly=20
delegated to detri-x4; 2) it is much easier to extract one of the=20
numbers (such as the year number) from the date expression (for example:=20
{lo pormoi <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/pormoi> be li pa bei lo=20
detri be fo'a} =3D the first member (the year) of the number sequence=20
which represents the date of the fo'a event).


Any thoughts, opinions, suggestions or comments would be greatly=20
appreciated.

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8=
">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    <table style=3D"border: solid 1px black; background-color: #DDFFFF;"
      cellpadding=3D"4">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <td><font color=3D"#003366">=E2=80=A2 detri: x1 is the date
              [day,{week},{month},year] of event/state x2, at location
              x3, by calendar x4 =E2=80=94 (time units in x1 are specified =
as
              numbers separated by pi'e or are unit values massified
              with joi);<br>
              =E2=80=A2 tcika: x1 [hours, {minutes}, {seconds}] is the time=
/hour
              of state/event x2 on day x3 at location x4 =E2=80=94 (time un=
its
              in x1 are specified as numbers separated by pi'e or are
              unit values massified with joi);</font><br>
          </td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    Those definitions do not make very clear what kind of argument is
    expected by detri-x1 and tcika-x1. In actual usage, those argument
    slots are used the following way:<br>
    <br>
    =E2=80=A2 { .i detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu pi'e re mu }<br>
    =E2=80=A2 { li pa no pi'e vo no cu tcika fo mi }<br>
    <br>
    However, does the {detri} sentence actually have the intended
    meaning? Isn't {me'o} more appropriate than {li} for expressing
    dates?<br>
    <br>
    The problem is the following:<br>
    <br>
    As far as I can tell, {li} takes a numeric expression/symbol, and
    evaluates it (using the specified numeric base or otherwise the most
    likely one according to the context), returning a pure number (the
    abstract number represented by the numeric expression). So, {li pa
    re ju'u bi} is similar to {lo <a
      href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u">mekna'u</a> be
    me'o pa re bei li bi} (the abstract number represented by the digit
    string "12" in base eight, which is equal to ten in base ten).<br>
    <br>
    In a similar fashion, I'd expect detri-x1 to parallels <a
      href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u">mekna'u</a>-x2
    (the expression/symbol), while detri-x4 would parallel <a
      href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mekna%27u">mekna'u</a>-x3
    (the system whereby the expression is evaluated/interpreted).<br>
    <br>
    In sentences such as { detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu pi'e re mu },
    it seems that the date expression "2008:5:25" is first evaluated
    into a pure number (using some unspecified base), and then given to
    detri-x1, in which case detri-x4 seems to become completely useless,
    as it cannot be applied to any numeric expression (as all is given
    to it as input is a pure number). { detri fa li re no no bi pi'e mu
    pi'e re mu fo ko'a } would then be about as meaningful as { li ze no
    no no no no cu detri fo ko'a }.<br>
    <br>
    An alternative to using {me'o} instead of {li} could be giving a
    number sequence to detri-x1, as exemplified below:<br>
    =E2=80=A2 { li re no pa mu ce'o li ci ce'o li so cu detri lo cabdei fo =
ko'a
    }<br>
    <br>
    The drawback to this is that it's two syllables longer than the
    li+pi'e usage (and one syllable longer than me'o+pi'e), but the
    upsides are that 1) the job of evaluating/interpreting the date
    expression is clearly delegated to detri-x4; 2) it is much easier to
    extract one of the numbers (such as the year number) from the date
    expression (for example: {lo <a
      href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/pormoi">pormoi</a> be li pa
    bei lo detri be fo'a} =3D the first member (the year) of the number
    sequence which represents the date of the fo'a event).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Any thoughts, opinions, suggestions or comments would be greatly
    appreciated.<br>
    <br>
    mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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