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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:17:12 +0100
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] On the meanings of the causal gismu
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On 23/03/2015 16:31, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     =E2=80=94 What is the semantic difference between {selja'e}, {rinka} =
and
>     {bapli}? Does {selja'e} express a weaker relation than that
>     expressed by {rinka}?
>
>
> Setting aside the "sumti raising" issue, I would say "rinka" and=20
> "selja'e" are pretty much equivalent. It's hard to think of cases=20
> where one works but not the other.
>
I've always though of {selja'e} as being a somewhat looser / less strict=20
relation than {rinka}, as if it was something like {x1 .a lo selpau be=20
x1 cu rinka x2}, so that one can say {lo nu carvi cu selja'e lo nu mi na=20
klama}, where the connection between the two events is not clearly=20
explained, and where it seems that "lo nu carvi" is not the only factor=20
that have determined the event {lo nu mi klama} not to occur (another=20
plausible factor could be "mi na djica lo nu mi se carvi").
But this impression that {selja'e} is looser than {rinka} is perhaps=20
subjective, and maybe {rinka} can be used just as vaguely.

> "banzu" is not the same as "rinka". ro da zo'u da banzu da .i ku'i na=20
> ku ro da zo'u da rinka da .i la'a no da zo'u da rinka da .i ro da poi=20
> kacna'u zo'u lo du'u da pilji li vo lo kacna'u cu banzu lo du'u da=20
> pilji li re lo kacna'u .i ku'i pe'i lo du'u pilji li vo cu na rinka lo=20
> du'u pilji li re
>
But, isn't this second example (that with {kacna'u}) what {nibli} is=20
for? I thought that banzu-nu (the version of {banzu} that parallels=20
{sarcu}) was the event equivalent of {nibli}.

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    On 23/03/2015 16:31, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAO7tK2dftLA+nOV_7SwaK8LPDReAY0MbJnWeN6wunJjKjbaiDw@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 10:49 AM,
            Ilmen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">i=
lmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><br>
                =E2=80=94 What is the semantic difference between {selja'e}=
,
                {rinka} and {bapli}? Does {selja'e} express a weaker
                relation than that expressed by {rinka}?<br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Setting aside the "sumti raising" issue, I would say
              "rinka" and "selja'e" are pretty much equivalent. It's
              hard to think of cases where one works but not the other.</di=
v>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I've always though of {selja'e} as being a somewhat looser / less
    strict relation than {rinka}, as if it was something like {x1 .a lo
    selpau be x1 cu rinka x2}, so that one can say {lo nu carvi cu
    selja'e lo nu mi na klama}, where the connection between the two
    events is not clearly explained, and where it seems that "lo nu
    carvi" is not the only factor that have determined the event {lo nu
    mi klama} not to occur (another plausible factor could be "mi na
    djica lo nu mi se carvi").<br>
    But this impression that {selja'e} is looser than {rinka} is perhaps
    subjective, and maybe {rinka} can be used just as vaguely.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAO7tK2dftLA+nOV_7SwaK8LPDReAY0MbJnWeN6wunJjKjbaiDw@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div>"banzu" is not the same as "rinka". ro da zo'u da banzu
              da .i ku'i na ku ro da zo'u da rinka da .i la'a no da zo'u
              da rinka da .i ro da poi kacna'u zo'u lo du'u da pilji li
              vo lo kacna'u cu banzu lo du'u da pilji li re lo kacna'u
              .i ku'i pe'i lo du'u pilji li vo cu na rinka lo du'u pilji
              li re<br>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    But, isn't this second example (that with {kacna'u}) what {nibli} is
    for? I thought that banzu-nu (the version of {banzu} that parallels
    {sarcu}) was the event equivalent of {nibli}.<br>
    <br>
    mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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