Received: from mail-lb0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:33183) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcsGX-0007ru-S8 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:27 -0700 Received: by lbiv14 with SMTP id v14sf2592924lbi.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=mwwS9sZYi/g9GOtdMyrjVWPZCksWnbqPNJjQcYDvL/s=; b=fgpXq63gF9Ch7QODtQ9C8ZhTRejLjc8vAT8MxeyciIEIKO1sfjxrHcf3rS8stQw3AQ qOHQJMPep5QTmukMZJWquJTY+Q4Qun1iIgNLHAgOiAwo63/tU5wBm7XlBj3nD6mmeunQ 0WnbcCYzduS1ppeOUI37GTZMTtjoE7ouTL2BasVntODb1QInx82Orhgw+KLyyVBeIlGP qUoJvmMmdd5+fEG8xMgP6srb3/2mxV9os8STPmIWyTMZvobtnC+HQrKX/k/NejP80Wgj Dc8ihtDIo3WEKdmqV1m3KGs5POoxk3TPVpnZ3GoMlnZ6ynU1gL6FhV7N6twZh2Af7FuW yH9A== X-Received: by 10.152.87.38 with SMTP id u6mr445358laz.24.1427793314906; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.153.7.105 with SMTP id db9ls563744lad.87.gmail; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.67.74 with SMTP id l10mr954109lbt.23.1427793313927; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c8si963429wiw.1.2015.03.31.02.15.13 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::232; Received: by mail-wi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id gn9so17575719wib.1 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.126.41 with SMTP id mv9mr3734700wib.72.1427793313717; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 02:14:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:14:53 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Two meanings of {bu} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f839cb546ef8a05129209c4 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - --e89a8f839cb546ef8a05129209c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means one > thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral > symbol. "nubu" "slakabu" > {slaka bu}, not {slakabu}. > "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. "VALSI bu" > is equivalent to a BY, period. > They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and that's the problem. > Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a > sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what. > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku > goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as > B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo > gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a > cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama > lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu" > > The only difference in usage is for *implicit* assignment. Using a > letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the > last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy > blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you > scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves > (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless > you have preceeded it by a me'o. > It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "a". > --gejyspa > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti with >> sumti tails that start with the same vowel. >> 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference >> sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) >> {nu} or {du'u} abstractions. >> >> This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. >> reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule. >> >> 3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols like >> {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are >> talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and >> just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such >> constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly >> defined in the dictionary. >> >> 4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. and >> 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references >> {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the >> symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}. >> >> 5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys. >> >> If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference >> dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this rule. >> And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol without {me'o} >> since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker. >> >> So my proposal is: >> 1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them >> like {denpabu} and {slakabu}. >> 2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be defined in >> the dictionary. >> 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to >> {le} explained here >> or >> ri'oi . But even more correctly >> would be to show two examples identical in meaning: >> >> a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo} >> b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo} >> >> Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter >> how often one would need that). >> >> {mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}. >> >> {ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be similar >> to {lo go'oi }. >> >> Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING bu} >> to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of A >> keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f839cb546ef8a05129209c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>:
=C2= =A0 I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu".=C2=A0= It means one thing, and one thing only.=C2=A0 It changes the last word int= o a letteral symbol. =C2=A0"nubu" "slakabu"

{slaka bu}, not {slakabu}.
=C2=A0
"kybu" etc are = no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. =C2=A0&= quot;VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period.
<= br>
They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not sema= ntically when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable= , and that's the problem.


=C2=A0 Now, that being said, a B= Y (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a sumti (terbri) refers= to something previous.=C2=A0 The only question is what.

=C2=A0 There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, &= quot;lo gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we= will refer to as B, goes to the store.=C2=A0 B is blue.) It is exactly the= same thing as "lo gerku goi la sam =C2=A0cu klama lo zarci .i la sam = blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a bl= anu" =C2=A0And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama lo zarci .i d= enpa bu blanu"

=C2=A0 The only difference in = usage is for implicit=C2=A0assignment.=C2=A0 Using a letteral withou= t a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the last t= hing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy bla= nu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and = leave you scratching your head as to what "," referred to.=C2=A0 = But it always resolves (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designate= d by the label "," " (unless you have preceeded it by a me&#= 39;o.

It can't resolve into= "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never know what {mlatu b= u} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the symbol &= quot;A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "= a".


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa



On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gl= eki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumt= i with sumti tails that start with the same vowel.
2. {bu} is proposed = by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference sumti that have sumti = tails that start (or probably contain at main level) {nu} or {du'u} abs= tractions.

This immediately raises a question: can= a {nu bu} according to rule 1. reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a= new rule.

3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso= to reference certain symbols like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it'= s about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are talking about formulae. In this = case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and just adds this new third ru= le, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such constructs as {abu}, {nu bu= }, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly defined in the dictionary.
=

4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'= ;o} can't fit into rules 1. and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume th= at it anaphorically references {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} wi= thout {me'o} can reference the symbol alpha. Instead, it would referenc= e {la .alfas.}.

5. Neither {uibu} can be used with= out {me'o} to denote smileys.

If {denpa bu} an= d {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference dots and alpha s= ymbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this rule. And in this= case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol without {me= 'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker.

So my proposal is:
1. to always use {me'o} to referenc= e symbols or to use fu'ivla for them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}.
2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be define= d in the dictionary.
3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced an= aphorically, it is close to {le} explained here=C2=A0or ri'oi. But even more correctly would be = to show two examples identical in meaning:

a) {lo = denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}
b)=C2=A0{lo denpa cu pendo mi .= ije denpa bu xendo}

Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} w= ould reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter how often one would need that).<= /div>

{mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}.
{ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus = be similar to {lo go'oi}.

Interesting that i= n past people suggested using different {SOMETHING bu} to mark keyboard key= s. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of A keyboard key because= it's already taken by an anaphorical construct.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--e89a8f839cb546ef8a05129209c4--