Received: from mail-lb0-f189.google.com ([209.85.217.189]:34792) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcvoL-0001Ro-5t for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:35 -0700 Received: by lbiv13 with SMTP id v13sf3698573lbi.1 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=RdZ7o2Dv2OFWq/3QMvc3iw9bz9xeZiN6lFKn4RvoWnE=; b=sm9PyWJNOsanLy5DAlv9e1+ZfBbuMAbFZXHzJzKU/c92okvHUhY6kTvfkSyXsEq2FB UOAmS6v0VrawN73pWEjjnguPe0dQVoRYop+V0vg221iGinN+5fR9TzCfS1IrwiF7Et1A Iv4ZL9gUJWh7bxwR2ciMjnGZ8Rb0bd8NsB6ktHqcqtA9UpSAm1rFlnB+AqoKueCAfd0x xsSkle3L0tJ2ezK9wr0OUFFBvyPBVpQATQ8bZylRKou7BU9iY9OSXn7jW16/7rh6Augb PO0Hqhjt/iq07MEn44pYEhJzGmd4rqwcBe0Mw+tIgEggHRZJyNLQuEV/gzepUHDtTF2Y 3/sA== X-Received: by 10.180.104.229 with SMTP id gh5mr16102wib.1.1427806942489; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.106.133 with SMTP id gu5ls43998wib.33.gmail; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.53.225 with SMTP id e1mr9764359wjp.4.1427806942047; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x229.google.com (mail-wg0-x229.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bz6si810386wib.3.2015.03.31.06.02.22 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::229; Received: by mail-wg0-x229.google.com with SMTP id e14so17916190wgo.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.102.165 with SMTP id fp5mr5203709wib.80.1427806941871; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:02:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna X-Goomoji-Body: true Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:02:00 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Two meanings of {bu} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=f46d04447e2d941bc3051295352f X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04447e2d941bc3051295352f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447e2d941bbf051295352e --f46d04447e2d941bbf051295352e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > I'm not saying that "slaka bu" *resolves* into ",". What I'm saying > is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symbol. It doesn't matter whether > you think of it as [?], or can't picture it at all. That's purely an > orthographic issue. There are an infinite number (me'o me'o je'o abu xi > no lo'o, if that parses?) of labels. Not all of them may have a symbol to > represent them in written form. But that doesn't matter on a usage level. > As a terbri, it just stands for something. If you have assigned it, it > doesn't matter what you have assigned it to. I can say "la xank goi mlatu > bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerku " If you haven't > previously assigned it, then your listener has to figure out what it might > refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anything at all, and is just some sort > of hypothetical template used in an example). *By convention*, if it's > one of the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we > assume it to refer to the last sumti that started with that letter (but > even that's not absolute, and can be overridden by explicit assignments). > But that is by convention po'o. (CLL 17.9.2 Notice the words "it can be > assumed"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu" > Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to learn. > > --gejyspa > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >>> I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means one >>> thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral >>> symbol. "nubu" "slakabu" >>> >> >> {slaka bu}, not {slakabu}. >> >> >>> "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. "VALSI >>> bu" is equivalent to a BY, period. >>> >> >> They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically >> when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and >> that's the problem. >> >> >>> Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a >>> sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what. >>> >>> There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku >>> goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as >>> B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo >>> gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a >>> cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama >>> lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu" >>> >>> The only difference in usage is for *implicit* assignment. Using a >>> letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the >>> last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy >>> blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you >>> scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves >>> (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless >>> you have preceeded it by a me'o. >>> >> >> It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never know >> what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the >> symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "a". >> >> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> 1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti >>>> with sumti tails that start with the same vowel. >>>> 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference >>>> sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) >>>> {nu} or {du'u} abstractions. >>>> >>>> This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. >>>> reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule. >>>> >>>> 3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols >>>> like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we >>>> are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. >>>> and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such >>>> constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly >>>> defined in the dictionary. >>>> >>>> 4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. >>>> and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references >>>> {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the >>>> symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}. >>>> >>>> 5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys. >>>> >>>> If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference >>>> dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this rule. >>>> And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol without {me'o} >>>> since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker. >>>> >>>> So my proposal is: >>>> 1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them >>>> like {denpabu} and {slakabu}. >>>> 2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be defined >>>> in the dictionary. >>>> 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to >>>> {le} explained here >>>> or >>>> ri'oi . But even more >>>> correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning: >>>> >>>> a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo} >>>> b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo} >>>> >>>> Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no >>>> matter how often one would need that). >>>> >>>> {mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}. >>>> >>>> {ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be >>>> similar to {lo go'oi }. >>>> >>>> Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING >>>> bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name >>>> of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04447e2d941bbf051295352e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>:
=C2= =A0 I'm not saying that "slaka bu" =C2=A0resolves into= ",".=C2=A0 What I'm saying is that "mlatu bu", is = (conceptually) a symbol.=C2=A0 It doesn't matter whether you think of i= t as=C2=A0, or can&#= 39;t picture it at all.=C2=A0 That's purely an orthographic issue.=C2= =A0 There are an infinite number (me'o =C2=A0me'o je'o abu xi n= o lo'o, if that parses?) of =C2=A0labels.=C2=A0 Not all of them may hav= e a symbol to represent them in written form.=C2=A0 But that doesn't ma= tter on a usage level. =C2=A0 As a terbri, it just stands for something.=C2= =A0 If you have assigned it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned i= t to.=C2=A0 I can say "la xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu= bu genai mlatu gi gerku " =C2=A0If you haven't previously assigne= d it, then your listener has to figure out what it might refer to (or indee= d, if it refers to anything at all, and is just some sort of hypothetical t= emplate used in an example). =C2=A0By convention, if it's one of= the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it = to refer to the last sumti that started with that letter (but even that'= ;s not absolute, and can be overridden by explicit assignments).=C2=A0 But = that is by convention po'o. =C2=A0(CLL 17.9.2 =C2=A0Notice the words &q= uot;it can be assumed"). But that's the only "privilege"= given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu"

Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the languag= e harder to learn.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arx= okuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turni= ansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 I think maybe you are misunderstanding the= use of "bu".=C2=A0 It means one thing, and one thing only.=C2=A0= It changes the last word into a letteral symbol. =C2=A0"nubu" &q= uot;slakabu"

{slaka bu}, = not {slakabu}.
=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr"> "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu"= or "my" in that regard. =C2=A0"VALSI bu" is equivalent= to a BY, period.

They are equ= ivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically when used without= {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and that's the probl= em.


=C2=A0 Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, = a "valsi bu") used as a sumti (terbri) refers to something previo= us.=C2=A0 The only question is what.

=C2=A0 There = is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku goi by= cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as B,= goes to the store.=C2=A0 B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "= ;lo gerku goi la sam =C2=A0cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "= ;lo gerku goi ko'a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" =C2=A0And = yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu"<= /div>

=C2=A0 The only difference in usage is for impl= icit=C2=A0assignment.=C2=A0 Using a letteral without a previous "g= oi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the last thing starting with t= hat letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy blanu") But I coul= d certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you scratching= your head as to what "," referred to.=C2=A0 But it always resolv= es (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "= ;," " (unless you have preceeded it by a me'o.

It can't resolve into ","= ; unless you open a dictionary. I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and = unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the symbol "A" = because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "a".

<= div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
1. {bu} is used after = vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti with sumti tails that start w= ith the same vowel.
2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du&#= 39;u bu} to reference sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably c= ontain at main level) {nu} or {du'u} abstractions.

=
This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1.= reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule.

=
3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols l= ike {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} s= ince we are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict wi= th 1. and 2. and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'= ;o} strings such constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meani= ng strictly defined in the dictionary.

4. Using {d= enpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1.= and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references = {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference = the symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}.

<= /div>
5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smiley= s.

If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used with= out {me'o} to reference dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du= 9;u are exclusions to this rule. And in this case we aren't able to ref= erence "a" as a symbol without {me'o} since {abu} is always a= n anaphorical marker.

So my proposal is:
=
1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla= for them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}.
2. The letteral meanings = of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be defined in the dictionary.
= 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to {le= } explained here=C2=A0or ri'= ;oi. But even more correctly would be to show two examples identical in= meaning:

a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}=
b)=C2=A0{lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo}
Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (= no matter how often one would need that).

{mi bu} = would refer to {lo mi broda}.

{ca bu} would refer = to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be similar to {lo go'oi}.

Interesting that in past people suggested using dif= ferent {SOMETHING bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never sug= gested as a name of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an ana= phorical construct.

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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