Received: from mail-wi0-f183.google.com ([209.85.212.183]:33928) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcwBX-00022Z-Sm for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:31 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf4887024wiv.1 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=tXE+1aOTekvmUG3kYILhST/iVVXMuk9XUB+dWJYn5E4=; b=fJIfW8sCmMsB7jECbBz06EbKti6mIjSo891qo8O7oVKrxgVa7Sc5YOem7YkMrcMrGO 78vpYQhYPb12y+WdTW01wpTqGJTDs/mDi+yu5XT9GhsfKS56coBcGV7Poci6hvMS4ZsK 2/JoFLmcGHRHl6GVKSrCA3TvwU6RPvG7hvK2V8y9QLJnQjz+cSZxjwV1CTbtKUNv65Zd PsOFwuF4Ya+g9grSBZa38nvVpulEK3DSvEn6ZEfCZ4LMcCEIscaJmWtywYUFpXOQ1IyE 3wqlPGbao8I0JROyveC7IU3RD7bz1SfUjaaa1RyQ6pLQvNznb/q5cpKmJY1bUiFrGswo ET7g== X-Received: by 10.152.20.169 with SMTP id o9mr453071lae.6.1427808381249; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.170.198 with SMTP id ao6ls646541lac.103.gmail; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.5.168 with SMTP id t8mr1192244lat.3.1427808380518; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sf8si784385wic.2.2015.03.31.06.26.20 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d; Received: by mail-wi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id di4so9052096wid.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.198.13 with SMTP id iy13mr5465396wic.7.1427808380366; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.62.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Goomoji-Body: true Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:26:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Two meanings of {bu} From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=047d7b66f47351b9ce0512958bae X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b66f47351b9ce0512958bae Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b66f47351b9ca0512958bad --047d7b66f47351b9ca0512958bad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 But it's not a rule. It's a convention by the lojban speaking community. It's not built in. You can speak and understand lojban without it (btw, this convention was one of the things that the Loglan community had adopted during the 30 years between me learning it and coming back to look for it on the Internet. I didn't understand it (nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that they had adopted (back in 1975 Loglan, word lengths of compound words were always 3N+5). It was because of these two things that I decided that if I was going to have to relearn the whole language anyway, I might as well learn lojban, which seemed less moribund.) --gejyspa On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > >> I'm not saying that "slaka bu" *resolves* into ",". What I'm saying >> is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symbol. It doesn't matter whether >> you think of it as [?], or can't picture it at all. That's purely an >> orthographic issue. There are an infinite number (me'o me'o je'o abu xi >> no lo'o, if that parses?) of labels. Not all of them may have a symbol to >> represent them in written form. But that doesn't matter on a usage level. >> As a terbri, it just stands for something. If you have assigned it, it >> doesn't matter what you have assigned it to. I can say "la xank goi mlatu >> bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerku " If you haven't >> previously assigned it, then your listener has to figure out what it might >> refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anything at all, and is just some sort >> of hypothetical template used in an example). *By convention*, if it's >> one of the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we >> assume it to refer to the last sumti that started with that letter (but >> even that's not absolute, and can be overridden by explicit assignments). >> But that is by convention po'o. (CLL 17.9.2 Notice the words "it can be >> assumed"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu" >> > > Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to > learn. > > >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >>> >>>> I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means one >>>> thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral >>>> symbol. "nubu" "slakabu" >>>> >>> >>> {slaka bu}, not {slakabu}. >>> >>> >>>> "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. "VALSI >>>> bu" is equivalent to a BY, period. >>>> >>> >>> They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically >>> when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and >>> that's the problem. >>> >>> >>>> Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a >>>> sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what. >>>> >>>> There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku >>>> goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as >>>> B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo >>>> gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a >>>> cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama >>>> lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu" >>>> >>>> The only difference in usage is for *implicit* assignment. Using a >>>> letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the >>>> last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy >>>> blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you >>>> scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves >>>> (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless >>>> you have preceeded it by a me'o. >>>> >>> >>> It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never know >>> what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the >>> symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "a". >>> >>> >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti >>>>> with sumti tails that start with the same vowel. >>>>> 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference >>>>> sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) >>>>> {nu} or {du'u} abstractions. >>>>> >>>>> This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. >>>>> reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule. >>>>> >>>>> 3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols >>>>> like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we >>>>> are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. >>>>> and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such >>>>> constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly >>>>> defined in the dictionary. >>>>> >>>>> 4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. >>>>> and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references >>>>> {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the >>>>> symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}. >>>>> >>>>> 5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys. >>>>> >>>>> If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference >>>>> dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this rule. >>>>> And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol without {me'o} >>>>> since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker. >>>>> >>>>> So my proposal is: >>>>> 1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for >>>>> them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}. >>>>> 2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be defined >>>>> in the dictionary. >>>>> 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close >>>>> to {le} explained here >>>>> or >>>>> ri'oi . But even more >>>>> correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning: >>>>> >>>>> a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo} >>>>> b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo} >>>>> >>>>> Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no >>>>> matter how often one would need that). >>>>> >>>>> {mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}. >>>>> >>>>> {ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be >>>>> similar to {lo go'oi }. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING >>>>> bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name >>>>> of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b66f47351b9ca0512958bad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 But it's not a rule.=C2=A0 It's a conventio= n by the lojban speaking community.=C2=A0 It's not built in.=C2=A0 You = can speak and understand lojban without it (btw, this convention was one of= the things that the Loglan community had adopted during the 30 years betwe= en me learning it and coming back to look for it on the Internet.=C2=A0 I d= idn't understand it (nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that they had a= dopted (back in 1975 Loglan, word lengths of compound words were always 3N+= 5).=C2=A0 It was because of these two things that I decided that if I was g= oing to have to relearn the whole language anyway, I might as well learn lo= jban, which seemed less moribund.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:0= 2 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> w= rote:


2015-03-31 15:= 58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:=
=C2=A0 I'm not sayi= ng that "slaka bu" =C2=A0resolves into ",".=C2= =A0 What I'm saying is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a s= ymbol.=C2=A0 It doesn't matter whether you think of it as=C2=A0, or can't picture it at= all.=C2=A0 That's purely an orthographic issue.=C2=A0 There are an inf= inite number (me'o =C2=A0me'o je'o abu xi no lo'o, if that = parses?) of =C2=A0labels.=C2=A0 Not all of them may have a symbol to repres= ent them in written form.=C2=A0 But that doesn't matter on a usage leve= l. =C2=A0 As a terbri, it just stands for something.=C2=A0 If you have assi= gned it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned it to.=C2=A0 I can sa= y "la xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi g= erku " =C2=A0If you haven't previously assigned it, then your list= ener has to figure out what it might refer to (or indeed, if it refers to a= nything at all, and is just some sort of hypothetical template used in an e= xample). =C2=A0By convention, if it's one of the 23 letters of t= he lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it to refer to the last= sumti that started with that letter (but even that's not absolute, and= can be overridden by explicit assignments).=C2=A0 But that is by conventio= n po'o. =C2=A0(CLL 17.9.2 =C2=A0Notice the words "it can be assume= d"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu= " over "mlatu bu"

Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to l= earn.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa
<= div>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gle= ki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturnian= sky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu&quo= t;.=C2=A0 It means one thing, and one thing only.=C2=A0 It changes the last= word into a letteral symbol. =C2=A0"nubu" "slakabu"

{slaka bu}, not {slakabu}.
=
=C2=A0
&qu= ot;kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" i= n that regard. =C2=A0"VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period.

They are equivalent syntacticall= y, grammatically but not semantically when used without {goi}. Their meanin= g is absolutely unpredictable, and that's the problem.
=

=C2=A0 Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu&quo= t;) used as a sumti (terbri) refers to something previous.=C2=A0 The only q= uestion is what.

=C2=A0 There is absolutely nothin= g wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. = i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as B, goes to the store.= =C2=A0 B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo gerku goi la sa= m =C2=A0cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko= 9;a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" =C2=A0And yes, "lo gerku= goi denpa bu cu klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu"

=C2=A0 The only difference in usage is for implicit=C2=A0assig= nment.=C2=A0 Using a letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt= is presumed to stand for the last thing starting with that letter. ("= lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy blanu") But I could certainly just sa= y "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you scratching your head as to wh= at "," referred to.=C2=A0 But it always resolves (when used as a = terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (un= less you have preceeded it by a me'o.

=
It can't resolve into "," unless you open a= dictionary. I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {= a bu} doesn't resolve into the symbol "A" because one would s= earch for a sumti tail starting with "a".

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa



On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.n= ame@gmail.com> wrote:
1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphoric= ally reference LA/LE-sumti with sumti tails that start with the same vowel.=
2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to referen= ce sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main leve= l) {nu} or {du'u} abstractions.

This immediate= ly raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. reference {lo nupr= e}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule.

3. {bu} is pro= posed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols like {.alfas. bu} fo= r alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are talking= about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and ju= st adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such co= nstructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly defined= in the dictionary.

4. Using {denpa bu} for "= dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. and 2. From rule 1= . and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references {LE/LA denpa}. Neit= her using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the symbol alpha. I= nstead, it would reference {la .alfas.}.

5. Neithe= r {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys.

If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to r= eference dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions = to this rule. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a"= ; as a symbol without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marke= r.

So my proposal is:
1. to always u= se {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them like {den= pabu} and {slakabu}.
2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, = slaka bu are to be defined in the dictionary.
3. {denpa bu} means= {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to {le} explained here=C2=A0or ri'oi. But even m= ore correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning:

a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}
b)=C2=A0= {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo}

Clearly= , {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter how often= one would need that).

{mi bu} would refer to {lo = mi broda}.

{ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or= {i ca broda} and thus be similar to {lo go'oi}.

=
Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING b= u} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of= A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct.=

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