Received: from mail-wi0-f188.google.com ([209.85.212.188]:34546) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcwJy-0002Df-69 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:14 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf4987336wiv.1 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=mg02tDOEZ65vWgj6s3ZTj0nSMYKODai44DrOnQnk6xQ=; b=IbcrbNQRc50FDK02yKybIlgRlX57CXSV3U5Y5crGy0iv87oUVjUw08VG8OovvXobbj n29sCKeogbb5SBgZvPd4j7v8AcEecE4l3rTUC6lB9s7NCrFBm3pl+FE7FPWWjHMNTOeG Vmn4p/4u6/SmvbPmFk5dfMm0M1lbSHQXw2WdxTGW8BNxfTRVJIUTZZcSkzYJXthoQDSP xL7PhOc61o+rDZ8pzj+nJPHJBRX7qNRXN+/eaa73JTjIBd4ew1J1j5SvVzFwgmRvCjJQ RyAToB3AuD5ek7cGm1WPbEkE16RhKeEDB0woyOx5FT3pxVrU5fJhGGJomq/UF7cDvAu1 nuKg== X-Received: by 10.152.36.34 with SMTP id n2mr346720laj.30.1427808903249; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.21.199 with SMTP id x7ls710199lae.0.gmail; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.180.74 with SMTP id dm10mr8523468lbc.11.1427808902406; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sf8si785630wic.2.2015.03.31.06.35.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id e14so19172826wgo.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.60.77 with SMTP id f13mr74705099wjr.105.1427808902189; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:34:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna X-Goomoji-Body: true Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:34:41 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Two meanings of {bu} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=047d7b86db8a6c2e52051295aa0e X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b86db8a6c2e52051295aa0e Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86db8a6c2e4d051295aa0d --047d7b86db8a6c2e4d051295aa0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-03-31 16:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > But it's not a rule. It's a convention by the lojban speaking > community. It's not built in. > The problem is that we have a lot of texts where this "convention" has been used. I don't know how you will tell computer applications "this is not a rule, this is a convention" and how it will answer to your questions about {abu} after that. Computer needs to understand that {abu} = {la .alis.} You can speak and understand lojban without it (btw, this convention was > one of the things that the Loglan community had adopted during the 30 years > between me learning it and coming back to look for it on the Internet. I > didn't understand it (nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that they had > adopted (back in 1975 Loglan, word lengths of compound words were always > 3N+5). It was because of these two things that I decided that if I was > going to have to relearn the whole language anyway, I might as well learn > lojban, which seemed less moribund.) > > --gejyspa > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >>> I'm not saying that "slaka bu" *resolves* into ",". What I'm saying >>> is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symbol. It doesn't matter whether >>> you think of it as [?], or can't picture it at all. That's purely an >>> orthographic issue. There are an infinite number (me'o me'o je'o abu xi >>> no lo'o, if that parses?) of labels. Not all of them may have a symbol to >>> represent them in written form. But that doesn't matter on a usage level. >>> As a terbri, it just stands for something. If you have assigned it, it >>> doesn't matter what you have assigned it to. I can say "la xank goi mlatu >>> bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerku " If you haven't >>> previously assigned it, then your listener has to figure out what it might >>> refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anything at all, and is just some sort >>> of hypothetical template used in an example). *By convention*, if it's >>> one of the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we >>> assume it to refer to the last sumti that started with that letter (but >>> even that's not absolute, and can be overridden by explicit assignments). >>> But that is by convention po'o. (CLL 17.9.2 Notice the words "it can be >>> assumed"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu" >>> >> >> Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to >> learn. >> >> >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >>>> >>>>> I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means >>>>> one thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral >>>>> symbol. "nubu" "slakabu" >>>>> >>>> >>>> {slaka bu}, not {slakabu}. >>>> >>>> >>>>> "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. "VALSI >>>>> bu" is equivalent to a BY, period. >>>>> >>>> >>>> They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically >>>> when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and >>>> that's the problem. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a >>>>> sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what. >>>>> >>>>> There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo >>>>> gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer >>>>> to as B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as >>>>> "lo gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi >>>>> ko'a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu >>>>> klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu" >>>>> >>>>> The only difference in usage is for *implicit* assignment. Using a >>>>> letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the >>>>> last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy >>>>> blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you >>>>> scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves >>>>> (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless >>>>> you have preceeded it by a me'o. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never >>>> know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve >>>> into the symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with >>>> "a". >>>> >>>> >>>>> --gejyspa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti >>>>>> with sumti tails that start with the same vowel. >>>>>> 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference >>>>>> sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) >>>>>> {nu} or {du'u} abstractions. >>>>>> >>>>>> This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule >>>>>> 1. reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols >>>>>> like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we >>>>>> are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. >>>>>> and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such >>>>>> constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly >>>>>> defined in the dictionary. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. >>>>>> and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references >>>>>> {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the >>>>>> symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}. >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys. >>>>>> >>>>>> If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to >>>>>> reference dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to >>>>>> this rule. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol >>>>>> without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker. >>>>>> >>>>>> So my proposal is: >>>>>> 1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for >>>>>> them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}. >>>>>> 2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be >>>>>> defined in the dictionary. >>>>>> 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close >>>>>> to {le} explained here >>>>>> or >>>>>> ri'oi . But even more >>>>>> correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning: >>>>>> >>>>>> a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo} >>>>>> b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo} >>>>>> >>>>>> Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no >>>>>> matter how often one would need that). >>>>>> >>>>>> {mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}. >>>>>> >>>>>> {ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be >>>>>> similar to {lo go'oi }. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING >>>>>> bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name >>>>>> of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b86db8a6c2e4d051295aa0d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-03-31 16:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>:
=C2= =A0 But it's not a rule.=C2=A0 It's a convention by the lojban spea= king community.=C2=A0 It's not built in.

The problem is that we have a lot of texts where this "convent= ion" has been used. I don't know how you will tell computer applic= ations "this is not a rule, this is a convention" and how it will= answer to your questions about {abu} after that. Computer needs to underst= and that {abu} =3D {la .alis.}


=C2=A0 You can speak and understand = lojban without it (btw, this convention was one of the things that the Logl= an community had adopted during the 30 years between me learning it and com= ing back to look for it on the Internet.=C2=A0 I didn't understand it (= nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that they had adopted (back in 1975 Logl= an, word lengths of compound words were always 3N+5).=C2=A0 It was because = of these two things that I decided that if I was going to have to relearn t= he whole language anyway, I might as well learn lojban, which seemed less m= oribund.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 --gejyspa


On Tue, Mar = 31, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

2015-03-31= 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 I'm not = saying that "slaka bu" =C2=A0resolves into ",".= =C2=A0 What I'm saying is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) = a symbol.=C2=A0 It doesn't matter whether you think of it as=C2=A0, or can't picture it= at all.=C2=A0 That's purely an orthographic issue.=C2=A0 There are an = infinite number (me'o =C2=A0me'o je'o abu xi no lo'o, if th= at parses?) of =C2=A0labels.=C2=A0 Not all of them may have a symbol to rep= resent them in written form.=C2=A0 But that doesn't matter on a usage l= evel. =C2=A0 As a terbri, it just stands for something.=C2=A0 If you have a= ssigned it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned it to.=C2=A0 I can= say "la xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu g= i gerku " =C2=A0If you haven't previously assigned it, then your l= istener has to figure out what it might refer to (or indeed, if it refers t= o anything at all, and is just some sort of hypothetical template used in a= n example). =C2=A0By convention, if it's one of the 23 letters o= f the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it to refer to the l= ast sumti that started with that letter (but even that's not absolute, = and can be overridden by explicit assignments).=C2=A0 But that is by conven= tion po'o. =C2=A0(CLL 17.9.2 =C2=A0Notice the words "it can be ass= umed"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a= bu" over "mlatu bu"

Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder t= o learn.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.n= ame@gmail.com> wrote:


<= span>2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.= com>:
=C2= =A0 I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu".=C2=A0= It means one thing, and one thing only.=C2=A0 It changes the last word int= o a letteral symbol. =C2=A0"nubu" "slakabu"

{slaka bu}, not {slakabu}.
=C2=A0
"kybu&q= uot; etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that re= gard. =C2=A0"VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period.

They are equivalent syntactically, gramma= tically but not semantically when used without {goi}. Their meaning is abso= lutely unpredictable, and that's the problem.


=C2=A0= Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used = as a sumti (terbri) refers to something previous.=C2=A0 The only question i= s what.

=C2=A0 There is absolutely nothing wrong w= ith saying, for example, "lo gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blan= u" (The dog, which we will refer to as B, goes to the store.=C2=A0 B i= s blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo gerku goi la sam =C2=A0cu= klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a cu kla= ma lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" =C2=A0And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa= bu cu klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu"

=C2= =A0 The only difference in usage is for implicit=C2=A0assignment.=C2= =A0 Using a letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presu= med to stand for the last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku = cu klama lo zarci .i gy blanu") But I could certainly just say "m= i xabju slaka bu" and leave you scratching your head as to what "= ," referred to.=C2=A0 But it always resolves (when used as a terbri) a= s "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless you = have preceeded it by a me'o.

It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictiona= ry. I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doe= sn't resolve into the symbol "A" because one would search for= a sumti tail starting with "a".


=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa



On M= on, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically = reference LA/LE-sumti with sumti tails that start with the same vowel.
= 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference su= mti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) {n= u} or {du'u} abstractions.

This immediately ra= ises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. reference {lo nupre}? I= f not 2. is indeed a new rule.

3. {bu} is proposed= to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols like {.alfas. bu} for alp= ha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are talking abou= t formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and just ad= ds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such constru= cts as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly defined in t= he dictionary.

4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot&q= uot; without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. and 2. From rule 1. and= 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references {LE/LA denpa}. Neither u= sing {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the symbol alpha. Instea= d, it would reference {la .alfas.}.

5. Neither {ui= bu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys.

<= div>If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to refere= nce dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to th= is rule. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as = a symbol without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker.

So my proposal is:
1. to always use {m= e'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them like {denpabu}= and {slakabu}.
2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka= bu are to be defined in the dictionary.
3. {denpa bu} means {lo = denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to {le} explained here=C2=A0or ri'oi. But even more c= orrectly would be to show two examples identical in meaning:

=
a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}
b)=C2=A0{lo d= enpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo}

Clearly, {de= npa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter how often one = would need that).

{mi bu} would refer to {lo mi br= oda}.

{ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i c= a broda} and thus be similar to {lo go'oi}.

= Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING bu} to= mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of A ke= yboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct.

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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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