Received: from mail-wg0-f62.google.com ([74.125.82.62]:33498) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcycJ-0003vY-SC for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:23 -0700 Received: by wggz12 with SMTP id z12sf6221664wgg.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BY+kuMOsG0ThQBk3U6hMj2veIhSpEMd0hFN2CIjP6+8=; b=s0Xw1XFvhwSrFVR35L3ykxhqqrR+OKQsUrlFjUznLaofdeI+XQUNqPuJ3QWTV8w4Wq Qqqwduu6F6WuDHwG305Q2LbdXHSBX/YHXkYr8kepy6SNjFRzTBi3Tz0xygdr444Nd7my TPeNe3X6csGnnYbfSacB3ty55A6iuVeWv4zC1HmQoO+hLsR0IpQUIxApMJq/R19ShMvv BJoz4fLIZ/PpdjLW4u31AyXps1an0WltbWOJCT5kS3h2hU0+SfoJXmux1QjYuGOq9MK5 5OG9tp2Kf9SdR543YFhoUa/b6P50Hrx8347yViRvVtrUOr84OOCARDdI/pdBiHdGso8f m6Dg== X-Received: by 10.180.96.131 with SMTP id ds3mr28274wib.10.1427817728445; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.181.8.225 with SMTP id dn1ls44wid.40.canary; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.71.227 with SMTP id y3mr6044709wju.3.1427817727838; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a14si546958wib.3.2015.03.31.09.02.07 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b; Received: by mail-wg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id e14so24271652wgo.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.24.233 with SMTP id x9mr6824133wif.9.1427817727665; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna X-Goomoji-Body: true Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:01:46 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Two meanings of {bu} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=f46d043749037642c7051297b837 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043749037642c7051297b837 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043749037642c5051297b836 --f46d043749037642c5051297b836 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The general machine translation problem is that sometimes you can retain the same level of vagueness when translating to target languages. The algorithm must know what are the possible realizations of {abu} anyway. 2015-03-31 16:48 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > Yes, exactly. A computer should *not *be able to follow it. It's as > ambiguous as what does "ra" refer to. A computer (without considerable > reasoning skills) should only be able to follow explicit goi labels. > > --gejyspa > > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-03-31 16:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >>> But it's not a rule. It's a convention by the lojban speaking >>> community. It's not built in. >>> >> >> The problem is that we have a lot of texts where this "convention" has >> been used. I don't know how you will tell computer applications "this is >> not a rule, this is a convention" and how it will answer to your questions >> about {abu} after that. Computer needs to understand that {abu} = {la >> .alis.} >> >> >> You can speak and understand lojban without it (btw, this convention >>> was one of the things that the Loglan community had adopted during the 30 >>> years between me learning it and coming back to look for it on the >>> Internet. I didn't understand it (nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that >>> they had adopted (back in 1975 Loglan, word lengths of compound words were >>> always 3N+5). It was because of these two things that I decided that if I >>> was going to have to relearn the whole language anyway, I might as well >>> learn lojban, which seemed less moribund.) >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >>>> >>>>> I'm not saying that "slaka bu" *resolves* into ",". What I'm >>>>> saying is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symbol. It doesn't matter >>>>> whether you think of it as [?], or can't picture it at all. That's >>>>> purely an orthographic issue. There are an infinite number (me'o me'o >>>>> je'o abu xi no lo'o, if that parses?) of labels. Not all of them may have >>>>> a symbol to represent them in written form. But that doesn't matter on a >>>>> usage level. As a terbri, it just stands for something. If you have >>>>> assigned it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned it to. I can say "la >>>>> xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerku " If >>>>> you haven't previously assigned it, then your listener has to figure out >>>>> what it might refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anything at all, and is >>>>> just some sort of hypothetical template used in an example). *By >>>>> convention*, if it's one of the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) >>>>> alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it to refer to the last sumti that >>>>> started with that letter (but even that's not absolute, and can be >>>>> overridden by explicit assignments). But that is by convention po'o. (CLL >>>>> 17.9.2 Notice the words "it can be assumed"). But that's the only >>>>> "privilege" given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu" >>>>> >>>> >>>> Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to >>>> learn. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> --gejyspa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky >>>>>> : >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means >>>>>>> one thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral >>>>>>> symbol. "nubu" "slakabu" >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> {slaka bu}, not {slakabu}. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. >>>>>>> "VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically >>>>>> when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and >>>>>> that's the problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as >>>>>>> a sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo >>>>>>> gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer >>>>>>> to as B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as >>>>>>> "lo gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi >>>>>>> ko'a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu >>>>>>> klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only difference in usage is for *implicit* assignment. Using >>>>>>> a letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the >>>>>>> last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy >>>>>>> blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you >>>>>>> scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves >>>>>>> (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless >>>>>>> you have preceeded it by a me'o. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never >>>>>> know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve >>>>>> into the symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with >>>>>> "a". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> --gejyspa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti >>>>>>>> with sumti tails that start with the same vowel. >>>>>>>> 2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to >>>>>>>> reference sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at >>>>>>>> main level) {nu} or {du'u} abstractions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule >>>>>>>> 1. reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain >>>>>>>> symbols like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} >>>>>>>> since we are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with >>>>>>>> 1. and 2. and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} >>>>>>>> strings such constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning >>>>>>>> strictly defined in the dictionary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules >>>>>>>> 1. and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically >>>>>>>> references {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can >>>>>>>> reference the symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to >>>>>>>> reference dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to >>>>>>>> this rule. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol >>>>>>>> without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So my proposal is: >>>>>>>> 1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for >>>>>>>> them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}. >>>>>>>> 2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be >>>>>>>> defined in the dictionary. >>>>>>>> 3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is >>>>>>>> close to {le} explained here >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> ri'oi . But even more >>>>>>>> correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo} >>>>>>>> b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo} >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no >>>>>>>> matter how often one would need that). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be >>>>>>>> similar to {lo go'oi }. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interesting that in past people suggested using different >>>>>>>> {SOMETHING bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested >>>>>>>> as a name of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical >>>>>>>> construct. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043749037642c5051297b836 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The general machine translation problem is that sometimes = you can retain the same level of vagueness when translating to target langu= ages.

The algorithm must know what are the possible real= izations of {abu} anyway.

2015-03-31 16:48 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, exactly.=C2=A0 A computer should not b= e able to follow it. It's as ambiguous as what does "ra" refe= r to.=C2=A0 A computer (without considerable reasoning skills) should only = be able to follow explicit goi labels.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --g= ejyspa




On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gle= ki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-03-31 16:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturnian= sky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 But it's not a rule.=C2=A0 It's a convention by the lo= jban speaking community.=C2=A0 It's not built in.

The problem is that we have a lot of texts where th= is "convention" has been used. I don't know how you will tell= computer applications "this is not a rule, this is a convention"= and how it will answer to your questions about {abu} after that. Computer = needs to understand that {abu} =3D {la .alis.}


=C2=A0 You= can speak and understand lojban without it (btw, this convention was one o= f the things that the Loglan community had adopted during the 30 years betw= een me learning it and coming back to look for it on the Internet.=C2=A0 I = didn't understand it (nor the 6 letter lujvo-style words that they had = adopted (back in 1975 Loglan, word lengths of compound words were always 3N= +5).=C2=A0 It was because of these two things that I decided that if I was = going to have to relearn the whole language anyway, I might as well learn l= ojban, which seemed less moribund.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

=

On Tue, Mar 31, 2= 015 at 9:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= ; wrote:


2015-03-31 15:5= 8 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:<= br>
=C2=A0 I'm not sayin= g that "slaka bu" =C2=A0resolves into ",".=C2=A0= What I'm saying is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symb= ol.=C2=A0 It doesn't matter whether you think of it as=C2=A0, or can't picture it at al= l.=C2=A0 That's purely an orthographic issue.=C2=A0 There are an infini= te number (me'o =C2=A0me'o je'o abu xi no lo'o, if that par= ses?) of =C2=A0labels.=C2=A0 Not all of them may have a symbol to represent= them in written form.=C2=A0 But that doesn't matter on a usage level. = =C2=A0 As a terbri, it just stands for something.=C2=A0 If you have assigne= d it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned it to.=C2=A0 I can say &= quot;la xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerk= u " =C2=A0If you haven't previously assigned it, then your listene= r has to figure out what it might refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anyt= hing at all, and is just some sort of hypothetical template used in an exam= ple). =C2=A0By convention, if it's one of the 23 letters of the = lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it to refer to the last su= mti that started with that letter (but even that's not absolute, and ca= n be overridden by explicit assignments).=C2=A0 But that is by convention p= o'o. =C2=A0(CLL 17.9.2 =C2=A0Notice the words "it can be assumed&q= uot;). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu&qu= ot; over "mlatu bu"

= Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to lear= n.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa

=

O= n Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@= gmail.com> wrote:


2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com= >:
=C2=A0 = I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu".=C2=A0 It = means one thing, and one thing only.=C2=A0 It changes the last word into a = letteral symbol. =C2=A0"nubu" "slakabu"

{slaka bu}, not {slakabu}.
= =C2=A0
"kybu&quo= t; etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that rega= rd. =C2=A0"VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period.

They are equivalent syntactically, grammati= cally but not semantically when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolu= tely unpredictable, and that's the problem.

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0 N= ow, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as= a sumti (terbri) refers to something previous.=C2=A0 The only question is = what.

=C2=A0 There is absolutely nothing wrong wit= h saying, for example, "lo gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu&= quot; (The dog, which we will refer to as B, goes to the store.=C2=A0 B is = blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo gerku goi la sam =C2=A0cu k= lama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a cu klama= lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" =C2=A0And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa b= u cu klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu"

=C2=A0= The only difference in usage is for implicit=C2=A0assignment.=C2=A0= Using a letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed= to stand for the last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu = klama lo zarci .i gy blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi x= abju slaka bu" and leave you scratching your head as to what ",&q= uot; referred to.=C2=A0 But it always resolves (when used as a terbri) as &= quot;the thing designated by the label "," " (unless you hav= e preceeded it by a me'o.

It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary.= I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn&= #39;t resolve into the symbol "A" because one would search for a = sumti tail starting with "a".


=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


=

On Mon,= Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:
1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically refer= ence LA/LE-sumti with sumti tails that start with the same vowel.
2. {b= u} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference sumti t= hat have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) {nu} or= {du'u} abstractions.

This immediately raises = a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. reference {lo nupre}? If not= 2. is indeed a new rule.

3. {bu} is proposed to b= e used in mekso to reference certain symbols like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. P= robably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are talking about for= mulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and just adds th= is new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such constructs a= s {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly defined in the di= ctionary.

4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" = without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. and 2. From rule 1. and 2. w= e can assume that it anaphorically references {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using = {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the symbol alpha. Instead, it= would reference {la .alfas.}.

5. Neither {uibu} c= an be used without {me'o} to denote smileys.

I= f {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference d= ots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this ru= le. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a sym= bol without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker.

So my proposal is:
1. to always use {me'= ;o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them like {denpabu} and = {slakabu}.
2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu a= re to be defined in the dictionary.
3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa= } referenced anaphorically, it is close to {le} explained here=C2=A0or ri'oi. But even more correc= tly would be to show two examples identical in meaning:

a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}
b)=C2=A0{lo denpa = cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo}

Clearly, {denpa b= u prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter how often one would= need that).

{mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}.=

{ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca bro= da} and thus be similar to {lo go'oi}.

Inter= esting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING bu} to mark= keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of A keyboar= d key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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