Received: from mail-yh0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:34721) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiOdF-0003nS-OT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:44 -0700 Received: by yhl29 with SMTP id 29sf6790705yhl.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Vq7RCjuyelcKHlMZLeB9n7S7fjxFQf9+ZzyWxVoXCRs=; b=dlTD4mUSPBg8QiRluq8pBWNsIIC9qOdhMIk0mMcYgs6OtVk6CGXfQwocOg1IRik8u9 sk4iDz+TCU3yGz4neSfLSObTPYmGYp3JmhugMnnJXiMlWH4i0qpFjvrp9hu4dbb7OeQX cLHjLsz6xCFyxk1UZIsJkmlax07VkbJGa/e3fKahGc50Ra2KAGVp6Ea81wvb171xSL/q k7/AYaf41t+0r22JvTeISuX3VD5eJwSiDPRo+6ylD51yrkHV1By0hUJzyv5Dr8xobfPO aZ0H2AUVcrWHVIWWb6KBUtKo2YFC3Y/IOzXzXyoteH3b2W8U9RC8wvbEFJUB1YjnSAze gwyA== X-Received: by 10.140.98.116 with SMTP id n107mr331612qge.11.1429109371795; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.22.213 with SMTP id 79ls667907qgn.12.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.32.178 with SMTP id o38mr38469572yha.5.1429109371433; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k6si694291qca.0.2015.04.15.07.49.31 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a; Received: by mail-qk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 63so86447340qku.3 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.226.71 with SMTP id iv7mr33139168qcb.13.1429109346364; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.39.7 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:49:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:49:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134ad1cef73560513c47229 X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1134ad1cef73560513c47229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, the reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had one. At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for each category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any other like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being more exact than the cultural gismu. For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of". As a reminder: - banra'a - klura'a - cemra'a - jdara'a - selgu'era'a - tutra'a The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for languages too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing it's because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will use and even fewer will recognize without looking up. Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will never have a reason to know. I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above statements= . On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is just on= e >> more reason not to use them. >> > > Do you have an alternative list of all countries? > >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have IS= O >>> now. >>> >>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't. >>> >>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>> I propose >>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>> >>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_elements >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_ele= ments >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1134ad1cef73560513c47229 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you&= #39;ll recall, the reason this list was created was because the cultural gi= smu were thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countrie= s had one.

At that time, I argued that making cultural v= alsi for all the countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solut= ion would be to divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is be= tter than all is this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six = lujvo, one for each category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this= list or any other like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added be= nefit of being more exact than the cultural gismu.

For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of thi= ngs. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion.

But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you&#= 39;d know exactly what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D &= quot;is the country of".

As a reminder:
=
The ISO fu'i= vla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some ty= pe for all the countries. The same was done for languages too, again using = ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one announced they had d= one the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing it's because tho= se don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lo= t of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will use and eve= n fewer will recognize without looking up.

Disagre= e with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six easy t= o remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea tha= n hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with esoteric know= ledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will never have a reason= to know.

I also think they're ugly words as a= whole and are far too similar to each other, but those are opinions even m= ore subjective than my above statements.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki A= rxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

=
2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 = Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I&= #39;m concerned, this is just one more reason not to use them.

Do you have an alternative list of all cou= ntries?=C2=A0

On Wed, A= pr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co= m> wrote:
=
Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 c= ountries don't have ISO now.

E.g.=C2=A0St. Barth=C3= =A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't.

Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are dr= ifting apart from Lojban system.
I propose=C2=A0
{gugde= bulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbean Neth= erlands
{gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island
{gugdecuv= e}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{gugdedugu} Diego Garcia
{gugde= 9;e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Melilla
{gugde'e'u} European = Union
{gugde'icu} Canary Islands
{gugdetu&= #39;a} Tristan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South Sudan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S. Outlying Islands
{gugdevu'a} = Vatican City
{gugdexuku} Kosovo
{gugdesuxe} St. Helena<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'u= cai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come= to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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