Received: from mail-wi0-f184.google.com ([209.85.212.184]:34228) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiOmR-0004bS-7j for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:59:11 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf17026322wiv.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:59:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=/9xjqIa6dqo7kMZHjUEh4bPZiLE2t+ah7N+Q78q6bE8=; b=UJ7c9XGlWPdZKIjjmq0U+IpMegP/+QcQ10QH6SdiB3r9HJDCZQijoWTjoDqpua/Vg7 YD4r7BA6E2u1Kok5M0WHnS2yt6SUrb3gFOZo3FjX2V20OVr54TVwvkYUCA1adrMVIHUU eEyGEjcoZZ9UJDwuXcOV2HZBH/EyV5AsZNWrPfYWjy8NMU2bqcRf0LxNs7Gz4iEgNsB+ d8uBzDzXGaOAckXvg+UFGYxDW4iypqOF339Uoe9SuaS+F+ZrG5S3yQjMecUACpmZk9lr IcjP9epczifgGz4V6mhaaPNbmL8mINzVedfsHFzikmFxjfBkAVVLY5pky2XM9qssi5Yi 8iPg== X-Received: by 10.152.87.230 with SMTP id bb6mr296723lab.18.1429109940508; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:59:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.10.5 with SMTP id e5ls183289lab.37.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.26.134 with SMTP id l6mr4829943lag.10.1429109939838; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2si806743wif.0.2015.04.15.07.58.59 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id di4so158225822wid.0 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.8.69 with SMTP id p5mr43196068wia.69.1429109939696; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:58:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:58:38 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044283b64cfa2e0513c49635 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d044283b64cfa2e0513c49635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, the > reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were thought = to > break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had one. > > At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries > was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the > countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this > particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for each > category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any other > like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being mo= re > exact than the cultural gismu. > > For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of things= . > It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. > > But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly what = I > meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of". > > As a reminder: > > - banra'a > - klura'a > - cemra'a > - jdara'a > - selgu'era'a > - tutra'a > > The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural > valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for languages > too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one > announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing it= 's > because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone wen= t > to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will us= e > and even fewer will recognize without looking up. > > Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six > easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better > idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with > esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will neve= r > have a reason to know. > Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue using existing ones. Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. I need words. Don't criticize, provide options! > I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to eac= h > other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above statemen= ts. > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >> >>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is just >>> one more reason not to use them. >>> >> >> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have >>>> ISO now. >>>> >>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't. >>>> >>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>> I propose >>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>> >>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_element= s >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_el= ements >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d044283b64cfa2e0513c49635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor= will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, the reason this lis= t was created was because the cultural gismu were thought to break Lojban&#= 39;s neutrality, because not all countries had one.

At t= hat time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries was a f= ool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the countr= ies from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this particular a= ll-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for each category used = in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any other like it, is imm= une from drift, and also has the added benefit of being more exact than the= cultural gismu.

For example, what do I mean when = I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of things. It's a very broad word. T= oo broad, in my opinion.

But if I were to say {ko&= #39;a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly what I meant, as= long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of".

As a reminder:
The ISO fu'iv= la for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some typ= e for all the countries. The same was done for languages too, again using I= SO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one announced they had do= ne the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing it's because thos= e don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lot= of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will use and even= fewer will recognize without looking up.

Disagree= with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six easy to= remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea than= hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with esoteric knowl= edge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will never have a reason = to know.

Today I needed names o= f all countries when translating Tatoeba.org interface. If you can't pr= ovide me with better ones I will continue using existing ones.
Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week.
=

I need words.
Don't criticize, provid= e options!


I also think they're ugly words as a whole and = are far too similar to each other, but those are opinions even more subject= ive than my above statements.

On Wed, A= pr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co= m> wrote:
=

2015-04= -15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I've never liked the ISO= valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is just one more reason not to us= e them.

Do you have an alterna= tive list of all countries?=C2=A0

On= Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
Compared to the original xorxe's list arou= nd 15 countries don't have ISO now.

E.g.=C2=A0St. Ba= rth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't.
Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla = are drifting apart from Lojban system.
I propose=C2=A0
= {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbea= n Netherlands
{gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island
{gu= gdecuve}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{gugdedugu} Diego Garcia
{gu= gde'e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Melilla
{gugde'e'u} Eur= opean Union
{gugde'icu} Canary Islands
{gu= gdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Ocea= nia
{gugdesusu} South Sudan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarte= n
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S. Outlying Islands
{gugdevu&#= 39;a} Vatican City
{gugdexuku} Kosovo
{gugdesuxe} St. H= elena

The situation is somewhat described here= :

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d044283b64cfa2e0513c49635--