Received: from mail-qk0-f190.google.com ([209.85.220.190]:32911) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiP1l-00066n-Ld for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:15:01 -0700 Received: by qkbx191 with SMTP id x191sf69654766qkb.0 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=mvFcNnfJ3OlugGYTBG0LemwjbrudYwGv9RZRH42mPgE=; b=nlM/iL+45mOA6Ld/0JlRO0Wh5xeQOtREfYO/d+7Oao7Ihgo7ek+khye0EKmv9U7wlU yX2sd1KOISuf8WNmmVh9ORQlHfGRolcyEqjhSzjoSaR6qv6Pq+ltfhQjO+6MYEreBJqY epLzeL5rYkwj51l4ALO+GLzChjCTiermKzGfyy4hAey6dLk4BEubeUc9Nv9KF0Psbd58 lvxl4ZZzBD0kkuh5cYFoqdTegC5H2BsAJ8EJHElSGzLjz98E5+ZaAvH7Hp9mMX6Diuh1 6nGVWfsEKilQJHTPtRXotJBtJ/IQcSpzZk8vttZYDnj5b3RUMLVkFFBl3GROglFJVki2 iuVA== X-Received: by 10.140.31.196 with SMTP id f62mr354752qgf.30.1429110891636; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.108.118 with SMTP id i109ls751894qgf.60.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.206.10 with SMTP id k10mr22991755yho.14.1429110891320; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vn0-x236.google.com (mail-vn0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id zj5si120961vdb.1.2015.04.15.08.14.51 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::236; Received: by vnbg1 with SMTP id g1so16249915vnb.2 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.81.39 with SMTP id e36mr15342502qgd.10.1429110891056; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.39.7 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:14:50 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c13c4601964b0513c4cf03 X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c13c4601964b0513c4cf03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Use cmene. On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, the >> reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were thought= to >> break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had one. >> >> At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries >> was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the >> countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this >> particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for each >> category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any othe= r >> like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being m= ore >> exact than the cultural gismu. >> >> For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of >> things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. >> >> But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly what >> I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of". >> >> As a reminder: >> >> - banra'a >> - klura'a >> - cemra'a >> - jdara'a >> - selgu'era'a >> - tutra'a >> >> The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural >> valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for language= s >> too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one >> announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing i= t's >> because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone we= nt >> to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will u= se >> and even fewer will recognize without looking up. >> >> Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six >> easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better >> idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with >> esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will nev= er >> have a reason to know. >> > > Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org > interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue using > existing ones. > > Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. > > I need words. > Don't criticize, provide options! > > >> I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to >> each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above >> statements. >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>> >>>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is just >>>> one more reason not to use them. >>>> >>> >>> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have >>>>> ISO now. >>>>> >>>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't. >>>>> >>>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>>> I propose >>>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>>> >>>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_elemen= ts >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_e= lements >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c13c4601964b0513c4cf03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Use cmene.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll = recall, the reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu wer= e thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had o= ne.

At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi fo= r all the countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solution wou= ld be to divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better th= an all is this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, = one for each category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list o= r any other like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit o= f being more exact than the cultural gismu.

For ex= ample, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of things. It= 's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion.

But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd kn= ow exactly what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is= the country of".

As a reminder:
=

Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, bu= t I think having six easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x= 2 is a much better idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable t= o people with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of peop= le will never have a reason to know.

Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba= .org interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continu= e using existing ones.

Tatoeba.org production bran= ch will be updated in a week.

I need words.
Don't criticize, provide options!
<= div>

I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too simil= ar to each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above= statements.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gma= il.com>:
I= 've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is jus= t one more reason not to use them.

=
Do you have an alternative list of all countries?=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared to the = original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have ISO now.
<= br>
E.g.=C2=A0St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code howev= er it didn't.

Countrees disappear, ISO codes g= et reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are drifting apart from Lojban system.
<= div>I propose=C2=A0
{gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbean Netherlands
{gugdecupu} for Clipp= erton Island
{gugdecuve}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{gugdedu= gu} Diego Garcia
{gugde'e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Melilla
{gugde'e'u} European Union
{gugde'icu} Can= ary Islands
{gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South Sudan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S. Outlyin= g Islands
{gugdevu'a} Vatican City
{gugdexuku} Koso= vo
{gugdesuxe} St. Helena

The situat= ion is somewhat described here:
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'u= cai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come= to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c13c4601964b0513c4cf03--