Received: from mail-wg0-f64.google.com ([74.125.82.64]:33830) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPbB-0000lg-Cc for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:37 -0700 Received: by wggy19 with SMTP id y19sf15319980wgg.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=umvjyqm/3gqxNCYtB9QZIMGsu0rIfpTk5eI1NWSmIdI=; b=PYw7CucnYFJcHno+ytBmXL29ctJvFCtZcAjGphobDXr46Se+3FqNwqDS2yB6duI2y4 90eK3Fip8OKBFIfBs4Nbo68Crs92RclFQ87JuHWaBiSi06BUZAFFLuQCwV7WQRMHRFCt abucLYc0Aevxt3KjdarYI4sgz1YbkfM346tIPF0a1TUbN9IVPmoflcUu0gmqOp0/NhiX dtbYpiOwMX+nI9ErRyB7Uim8T7BS5KDYnZc8RaAGC9MTXXyjYpjtGDZRVAAlVElKmRjR xgvGkrvplAEOLGSye8K7ShmfpBEQiVFTyBj73yKK5qO6ZOgbWXIkrKq/Nze0E88R1uP+ DZ4w== X-Received: by 10.152.27.35 with SMTP id q3mr307822lag.9.1429113086823; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.21.130 with SMTP id v2ls177109lae.98.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.151.146 with SMTP id uq18mr6017646lbb.20.1429113086221; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q10si335525wiz.0.2015.04.15.08.51.26 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f; Received: by mail-wi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n10so65134252wiu.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.95.10 with SMTP id dg10mr43938822wib.41.1429113086063; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 18:51:05 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447f83d6bbaa0513c55139 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04447f83d6bbaa0513c55139 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of countries. Do you have one? If yes I'll use it. Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 countries and then Lojbanize it myself? 2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > Use cmene. > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >> >>> No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, th= e >>> reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were though= t to >>> break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had one. >>> >>> At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries >>> was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the >>> countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this >>> particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for eac= h >>> category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any oth= er >>> like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being = more >>> exact than the cultural gismu. >>> >>> For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of >>> things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. >>> >>> But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly wha= t >>> I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of". >>> >>> As a reminder: >>> >>> - banra'a >>> - klura'a >>> - cemra'a >>> - jdara'a >>> - selgu'era'a >>> - tutra'a >>> >>> The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural >>> valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for languag= es >>> too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one >>> announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing = it's >>> because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone w= ent >>> to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will = use >>> and even fewer will recognize without looking up. >>> >>> Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six >>> easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much bette= r >>> idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with >>> esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will ne= ver >>> have a reason to know. >>> >> >> Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org >> interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue usin= g >> existing ones. >> >> Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. >> >> I need words. >> Don't criticize, provide options! >> >> >>> I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to >>> each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above >>> statements. >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>> >>>>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is just >>>>> one more reason not to use them. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have >>>>>> ISO now. >>>>>> >>>>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't= . >>>>>> >>>>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>>>> I propose >>>>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>>>> >>>>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_eleme= nts >>>>>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_= elements >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04447f83d6bbaa0513c55139 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of L= ojbanized names of countries.
Do you have one? If yes I'll use = it.
Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 = countries and then Lojbanize it myself?

2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones= <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
Use cmene.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at= 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+= 03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time mak= ing one. If you'll recall, the reason this list was created was because= the cultural gismu were thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because = not all countries had one.

At that time, I argued that m= aking cultural valsi for all the countries was a fool's errand, and tha= t a better solution would be to divorce the countries from the culture. I.e= ., nothing is better than all is this particular all-or-nothing situation. = I then made six lujvo, one for each category used in the cultural gismu, wh= ich, unlike this list or any other like it, is immune from drift, and also = has the added benefit of being more exact than the cultural gismu.

For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? A= ny number of things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion.<= /div>

But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra= 'el.}, you'd know exactly what I meant, as long as you know that tu= tra'a ~=3D "is the country of".

As a= reminder:
The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simp= ly an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some type for all the countries. = The same was done for languages too, again using ISO codes. I was actually = mildly surprised when no one announced they had done the same for religion = et al., but I'm guessing it's because those don't have ISO code= s. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lot of trouble making hundre= ds of words that very few people will use and even fewer will recognize wit= hout looking up.

Disagree with me if you like, doe= sn't bother me, but I think having six easy to remember words that just= need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea than hundreds of words that a= re only recognizable to people with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the= vast majority of people will never have a reason to know.

Today I needed names of all countries wh= en translating Tatoeba.org interface. If you can't provide me with bett= er ones I will continue using existing ones.

Tatoe= ba.org production branch will be updated in a week.

I need words.
Don't criticize, provide options!


I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far = too similar to each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than= my above statements.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <= span dir=3D"ltr"><gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <e= yeonus@gmail.com>:
I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, t= his is just one more reason not to use them.

Do you have an alternative list of all countries?=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki A= rxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared = to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have ISO now= .

E.g.=C2=A0St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl cod= e however it didn't.

Countrees disappear, ISO = codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are drifting apart from Lojban system.=
I propose=C2=A0
{gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbean Netherlands
{gugdecupu} fo= r Clipperton Island
{gugdecuve}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{= gugdedugu} Diego Garcia
{gugde'e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Meli= lla
{gugde'e'u} European Union
{gugde'i= cu} Canary Islands
{gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South Su= dan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S. = Outlying Islands
{gugdevu'a} Vatican City
{gugdexuk= u} Kosovo
{gugdesuxe} St. Helena

The= situation is somewhat described here:

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04447f83d6bbaa0513c55139--