Received: from mail-vn0-f59.google.com ([209.85.216.59]:34068) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPgj-0001JR-Iv for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:21 -0700 Received: by vnbf62 with SMTP id f62sf6246873vnb.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=5xvW92U2Xw1Ys4Zk6kOTQJ7Nn+60UEbPo+p29Tfrl0I=; b=i87hq/0Ug/pB11Qt+NQwZOH8rDZWotczm5xaoTBNjxQb9l6I4BVWoElJZL69ePOoQQ wI3ysddvrUuNA1D5Xri8OBzMkhklknMS8TxhrbsjreaPiEnAN/Us32eulrAScU4xRNFS DxZU5aBaJnKsXPsXU9CsIDTmkNctjWE76VUl07db6NFsvp0Zve21SkgcDKxNU3XFLflU 9IRfb5Z4Nv4v+gG0h45NqRPQmyBQAF+5cyE/DS43AC9NRXWUS2+4ADBmKboJZlJP+qZU gqjt/Ahnm+hfujed/jYRXSXfIwfhoH7UR59+EAtKwfm/Kd/83w3nWCUFzgz9ZOdwamL6 w6/g== X-Received: by 10.50.171.161 with SMTP id av1mr214068igc.10.1429113431528; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.137.40 with SMTP id l40ls608100iod.94.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.42.10.6 with SMTP id o6mr35385167ico.27.1429113430957; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x231.google.com (mail-ob0-x231.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x1si508314igb.2.2015.04.15.08.57.10 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::231; Received: by mail-ob0-x231.google.com with SMTP id eb7so25734940obb.3 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.24.5 with SMTP id q5mr21175598obf.8.1429113415917; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.232.211 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:56:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2af907fe90e0513c56562 X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2af907fe90e0513c56562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Use any names you already know. English or Russian or whatever. They don't have to be perfect the first time. stevo On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of > countries. > Do you have one? If yes I'll use it. > Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 countries an= d > then Lojbanize it myself? > > 2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> Use cmene. >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>> >>>> No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, >>>> the reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were >>>> thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had on= e. >>>> >>>> At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countrie= s >>>> was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce th= e >>>> countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this >>>> particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for ea= ch >>>> category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any ot= her >>>> like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being= more >>>> exact than the cultural gismu. >>>> >>>> For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of >>>> things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. >>>> >>>> But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly >>>> what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of= ". >>>> >>>> As a reminder: >>>> >>>> - banra'a >>>> - klura'a >>>> - cemra'a >>>> - jdara'a >>>> - selgu'era'a >>>> - tutra'a >>>> >>>> The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural >>>> valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for langua= ges >>>> too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no on= e >>>> announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing= it's >>>> because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone = went >>>> to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people will= use >>>> and even fewer will recognize without looking up. >>>> >>>> Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having si= x >>>> easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much bett= er >>>> idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people with >>>> esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will n= ever >>>> have a reason to know. >>>> >>> >>> Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org >>> interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue usi= ng >>> existing ones. >>> >>> Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. >>> >>> I need words. >>> Don't criticize, provide options! >>> >>> >>>> I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to >>>> each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above >>>> statements. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>>> >>>>>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is jus= t >>>>>> one more reason not to use them. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't hav= e >>>>>>> ISO now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn'= t. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>>>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>>>>> I propose >>>>>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>>>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>>>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>>>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>>>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>>>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>>>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>>>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>>>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>>>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>>>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>>>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>>>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>>>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_elem= ents >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code= _elements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2af907fe90e0513c56562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Use any names you already know. English or Russian or whatev= er. They don't have to be perfect the first time.=C2=A0

stev= o

On W= ed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of Lojbanize= d names of countries.
Do you have one? If yes I'll use it.
Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 countrie= s and then Lojbanize it myself?

2015-04-1= 5 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
Use cmene.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 = at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-04-15 17:49 GM= T+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time m= aking one. If you'll recall, the reason this list was created was becau= se the cultural gismu were thought to break Lojban's neutrality, becaus= e not all countries had one.

At that time, I argued that= making cultural valsi for all the countries was a fool's errand, and t= hat a better solution would be to divorce the countries from the culture. I= .e., nothing is better than all is this particular all-or-nothing situation= . I then made six lujvo, one for each category used in the cultural gismu, = which, unlike this list or any other like it, is immune from drift, and als= o has the added benefit of being more exact than the cultural gismu.
<= div>
For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}?= Any number of things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion= .

But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.is= ra'el.}, you'd know exactly what I meant, as long as you know that = tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of".

As= a reminder:
The ISO fu'ivla for countries are = simply an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some type for all the countri= es. The same was done for languages too, again using ISO codes. I was actua= lly mildly surprised when no one announced they had done the same for relig= ion et al., but I'm guessing it's because those don't have ISO = codes. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lot of trouble making hu= ndreds of words that very few people will use and even fewer will recognize= without looking up.

Disagree with me if you like,= doesn't bother me, but I think having six easy to remember words that = just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea than hundreds of words th= at are only recognizable to people with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that= the vast majority of people will never have a reason to know.
<= /blockquote>

Today I needed names of all countrie= s when translating Tatoeba.org interface. If you can't provide me with = better ones I will continue using existing ones.

T= atoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week.

I need words.
Don't criticize, provide options!

=

I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are = far too similar to each other, but those are opinions even more subjective = than my above statements.
<= br>
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxoku= na <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <= span dir=3D"ltr"><eyeonus@gmail.com>:
I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned,= this is just one more reason not to use them.

<= /div>
Do you have an alternative list of all countries?=C2=A0

=
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki= Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Compare= d to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't have ISO n= ow.

E.g.=C2=A0St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl c= ode however it didn't.

Countrees disappear, IS= O codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are drifting apart from Lojban syste= m.
I propose=C2=A0
{gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy<= /div>
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbean Netherlands
{gugdecupu} = for Clipperton Island
{gugdecuve}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{gugdedugu} Diego Garcia
{gugde'e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Me= lilla
{gugde'e'u} European Union
{gugde'= ;icu} Canary Islands
{gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha
<= /div>
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South = Sudan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S= . Outlying Islands
{gugdevu'a} Vatican City
{gugdex= uku} Kosovo
{gugdesuxe} St. Helena

T= he situation is somewhat described here:

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--001a11c2af907fe90e0513c56562--