Received: from mail-qg0-f64.google.com ([209.85.192.64]:34056) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiQ6q-0003hm-5c for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:18 -0700 Received: by qgaj5 with SMTP id j5sf7248342qga.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=kiDnGksoxaQYaRzmI30UGjmmYtnjr5Eirt5kiLCs1yY=; b=vkn1t1DCN5Z9nx+mJ5/tIdfsN9IIbzyAdo6zfNxdFBGxltTOJfBaI2eglSs4WZYEOW Z02bKUY0I3PmpnBXvlM0B7GuOBXMS4l9Zc8v1lRBJdETCqGZXPUvcZPqddX95XZshqHP hnKHWT2HWOP82pWLSgOhBAtxIMyALbTUlxULdrIw+pyFEV/pZ30ExcAEkDeVoPfI4zeq NO0tbloMLKlPtQrnThca5bzm1eIUWakHwOLHLro6pMvuyXyUg9VVwNdJxa4I6s7R6MlQ BLYySHnralRsLEQhcGOi6nNpZOTXclH2z4OoFAPMHpU84brCfH8nJC3mpq1i26E0vYJJ NTCw== X-Received: by 10.50.143.99 with SMTP id sd3mr916igb.6.1429115050121; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.35.227 with SMTP id l3ls584644igj.22.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.57.1 with SMTP id e1mr11015773igq.0.1429115049750; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g6si746205qcg.2.2015.04.15.09.24.09 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231; Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x75so84246987qkg.1 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:24:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.48.16 with SMTP id w16mr53275499qkw.13.1429115015485; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.39.7 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:23:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:23:35 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11490ddad760720513c5c4be X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11490ddad760720513c5c4be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long as it's recognizably the name of X, it shouldn't matter too much. Whether you call it la.djapan. (from English), la.ni'on. (from Japanese), la.nipon. (from Mandarin(?)), etc. I'm certain lo ponpre will know what you're talking about, for example. On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:56 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Use any names you already know. English or Russian or whatever. They don'= t > have to be perfect the first time. > > stevo > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of >> countries. >> Do you have one? If yes I'll use it. >> Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 countries >> and then Lojbanize it myself? >> >> 2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >> >>> Use cmene. >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>> >>>>> No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, >>>>> the reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were >>>>> thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had o= ne. >>>>> >>>>> At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the >>>>> countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to >>>>> divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than = all is >>>>> this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one = for >>>>> each category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or = any >>>>> other like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit o= f >>>>> being more exact than the cultural gismu. >>>>> >>>>> For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of >>>>> things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly >>>>> what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country o= f". >>>>> >>>>> As a reminder: >>>>> >>>>> - banra'a >>>>> - klura'a >>>>> - cemra'a >>>>> - jdara'a >>>>> - selgu'era'a >>>>> - tutra'a >>>>> >>>>> The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultura= l >>>>> valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for langu= ages >>>>> too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no o= ne >>>>> announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessin= g it's >>>>> because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone= went >>>>> to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people wil= l use >>>>> and even fewer will recognize without looking up. >>>>> >>>>> Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having >>>>> six easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much >>>>> better idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to peop= le >>>>> with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people = will >>>>> never have a reason to know. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org >>>> interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue us= ing >>>> existing ones. >>>> >>>> Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. >>>> >>>> I need words. >>>> Don't criticize, provide options! >>>> >>>> >>>>> I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to >>>>> each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above >>>>> statements. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is >>>>>>> just one more reason not to use them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't >>>>>>>> have ISO now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn= 't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>>>>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>>>>>> I propose >>>>>>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>>>>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>>>>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>>>>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>>>>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>>>>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>>>>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>>>>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>>>>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>>>>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>>>>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>>>>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>>>>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>>>>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_ele= ments >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_cod= e_elements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11490ddad760720513c5c4be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As long as it's recognizably the name of X, it shouldn= 't matter too much.

Whether you call it la.djapan. (= from English), la.ni'on. (from Japanese), = la.nipon. (from Mandarin(?)), etc. I'm certain lo ponpre will know what= you're talking about, for example.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Morpheme= Addict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Use any names you already know. English or Russian o= r whatever. They don't have to be perfect the first time.=C2=A0

=
stevo

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 A= M, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot= e:
I can't use cmene= because I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of countries.
= Do you have one? If yes I'll use it.
Or you are telling me to= find native names for more than 200 countries and then Lojbanize it myself= ?

2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= :
Use cmene.

On Wed= , Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail= .com> wrote:


2015= -04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor will I = waste my time making one. If you'll recall, the reason this list was cr= eated was because the cultural gismu were thought to break Lojban's neu= trality, because not all countries had one.

At that time= , I argued that making cultural valsi for all the countries was a fool'= s errand, and that a better solution would be to divorce the countries from= the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is this particular all-or-no= thing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for each category used in the c= ultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any other like it, is immune from= drift, and also has the added benefit of being more exact than the cultura= l gismu.

For example, what do I mean when I say {k= o'a muslo}? Any number of things. It's a very broad word. Too broad= , in my opinion.

But if I were to say {ko'a tu= tra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly what I meant, as long as= you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country of".
As a reminder:
The ISO fu'ivla for= countries are simply an attempt to have a cultural valsi of some type for = all the countries. The same was done for languages too, again using ISO cod= es. I was actually mildly surprised when no one announced they had done the= same for religion et al., but I'm guessing it's because those don&= #39;t have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone went to a lot of tr= ouble making hundreds of words that very few people will use and even fewer= will recognize without looking up.

Disagree with = me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having six easy to remem= ber words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much better idea than hundr= eds of words that are only recognizable to people with esoteric knowledge- = ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will never have a reason to kno= w.

Today I needed names = of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org interface. If you can't p= rovide me with better ones I will continue using existing ones.
<= br>
Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week.

I need words.
Don't criticize, provi= de options!


I also think they're ugly words as a= whole and are far too similar to each other, but those are opinions even m= ore subjective than my above statements.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 A= M, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot= e:


2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 J= onathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I&#= 39;m concerned, this is just one more reason not to use them.

Do you have an alternative list of all coun= tries?=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at= 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don&= #39;t have ISO now.

E.g.=C2=A0St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was ab= out to get .bl code however it didn't.

Countre= es disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are drifting apart f= rom Lojban system.
I propose=C2=A0
{gugdebulu} for St. = Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for=C2=A0Caribbean Netherlands
<= div>{gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island
{gugdecuve}=C2=A0Cura= =C3=A7ao
{gugdedugu} Diego Garcia
{gugde'e'a}= =C2=A0Ceuta & Melilla
{gugde'e'u} European Union
<= /div>
{gugde'icu} Canary Islands
{gugdetu'a} Tri= stan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South Sudan
{gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten
{gug= de'umu}=C2=A0U.S. Outlying Islands
{gugdevu'a} Vatican Ci= ty
{gugdexuku} Kosovo
{gugdesuxe} St. Helena
<= div>
The situation is somewhat described here:
<= font color=3D"#888888">

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'u= cai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come= to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11490ddad760720513c5c4be--