Received: from mail-la0-f63.google.com ([209.85.215.63]:33326) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YiQEm-0004Sc-Pg for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:34 -0700 Received: by labgd6 with SMTP id gd6sf16075210lab.0 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=h3Wj3wCpeKSO8JDTJHxRIseNU9EYQqlM39NUhLaKHz0=; b=qkB9gc9ItUj+qDIo6apWWjHtG6dQnrPuLN3ZJQVcpUbwYhlqARzC/MHpDUKmPSXCj9 RDgFHJI1EKkkpDEc8d+1i4nJ/EMVgZpHhIr3VgphzeoUWHNjEer1NIh+FqzHMEWmPWY2 tiobw6iZiuLU6JMing522ppWJC1tL0mo3R9kxnvrTttlL7gpudtHXrYSqynqd2TzokJ8 mxFYEbtR+dJqcEuCR/VjgYY8EQ/pLQH/ugGWNvnrNUiXYVimTAm4yjyUh3ldIjZUP90S XAAy6TM4u+hZSJ+dmtQDXgiMbZAldXc/Mikl0jrZLaLGY5z4SxFgy8FiFAOhp0gMnBnt wXDA== X-Received: by 10.152.88.8 with SMTP id bc8mr311787lab.37.1429115541877; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.23.197 with SMTP id o5ls209370laf.66.gmail; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.26.5 with SMTP id h5mr5896903lbg.4.1429115541119; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x233.google.com (mail-wg0-x233.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sf8si338376wic.2.2015.04.15.09.32.21 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::233; Received: by mail-wg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id k9so52431066wgs.3 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr42723208wiy.49.1429115540948; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:32:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 19:31:59 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb0829493a0513c5e41b X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.3 X-Spam_score_int: -22 X-Spam_bar: -- --f46d043bdb0829493a0513c5e41b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-04-15 18:56 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict : > Use any names you already know. English or Russian or whatever. They don'= t > have to be perfect the first > And thus I used what already existed. If something better appears in future I'll immediately export it to Transifex. > > stevo > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I can't use cmene because I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of >> countries. >> Do you have one? If yes I'll use it. >> Or you are telling me to find native names for more than 200 countries >> and then Lojbanize it myself? >> >> 2015-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >> >>> Use cmene. >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>> >>>>> No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, >>>>> the reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were >>>>> thought to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had o= ne. >>>>> >>>>> At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the >>>>> countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to >>>>> divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than = all is >>>>> this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one = for >>>>> each category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or = any >>>>> other like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit o= f >>>>> being more exact than the cultural gismu. >>>>> >>>>> For example, what do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of >>>>> things. It's a very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> But if I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactly >>>>> what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the country o= f". >>>>> >>>>> As a reminder: >>>>> >>>>> - banra'a >>>>> - klura'a >>>>> - cemra'a >>>>> - jdara'a >>>>> - selgu'era'a >>>>> - tutra'a >>>>> >>>>> The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultura= l >>>>> valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for langu= ages >>>>> too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no o= ne >>>>> announced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessin= g it's >>>>> because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that someone= went >>>>> to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few people wil= l use >>>>> and even fewer will recognize without looking up. >>>>> >>>>> Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I think having >>>>> six easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a much >>>>> better idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to peop= le >>>>> with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people = will >>>>> never have a reason to know. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org >>>> interface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue us= ing >>>> existing ones. >>>> >>>> Tatoeba.org production branch will be updated in a week. >>>> >>>> I need words. >>>> Don't criticize, provide options! >>>> >>>> >>>>> I also think they're ugly words as a whole and are far too similar to >>>>> each other, but those are opinions even more subjective than my above >>>>> statements. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, this is >>>>>>> just one more reason not to use them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you have an alternative list of all countries? >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Compared to the original xorxe's list around 15 countries don't >>>>>>>> have ISO now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> E.g. St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn= 't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So ISO-fuhivla are >>>>>>>> drifting apart from Lojban system. >>>>>>>> I propose >>>>>>>> {gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy >>>>>>>> {gugdebuke} for Caribbean Netherlands >>>>>>>> {gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island >>>>>>>> {gugdecuve} Cura=C3=A7ao >>>>>>>> {gugdedugu} Diego Garcia >>>>>>>> {gugde'e'a} Ceuta & Melilla >>>>>>>> {gugde'e'u} European Union >>>>>>>> {gugde'icu} Canary Islands >>>>>>>> {gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha >>>>>>>> {gugdeke'o} Outlying Oceania >>>>>>>> {gugdesusu} South Sudan >>>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} Sint Maarten >>>>>>>> {gugde'umu} U.S. Outlying Islands >>>>>>>> {gugdevu'a} Vatican City >>>>>>>> {gugdexuku} Kosovo >>>>>>>> {gugdesuxe} St. Helena >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The situation is somewhat described here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Reserved_code_ele= ments >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_cod= e_elements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043bdb0829493a0513c5e41b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= 2015-04-15 18:56 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>:
Use any names you already know. English or Russian = or whatever. They don't have to be perfect the first =C2=A0

<= /div>
And thus I used what already existed. If something better appears= in future I'll immediately export it to Transifex.
=C2=A0

stevo

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11= :51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= wrote:
I can't use cmene because = I don't have a list of Lojbanized names of countries.
Do you ha= ve one? If yes I'll use it.
Or you are telling me to find nat= ive names for more than 200 countries and then Lojbanize it myself?

201= 5-04-15 18:14 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:<= br>
Use cmene.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:5= 8 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> w= rote:

<= br>
2015-04-15 17:49 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
No, I do not. Nor will I waste my time making one. If you'll recall, t= he reason this list was created was because the cultural gismu were thought= to break Lojban's neutrality, because not all countries had one.
<= br>
At that time, I argued that making cultural valsi for all the= countries was a fool's errand, and that a better solution would be to = divorce the countries from the culture. I.e., nothing is better than all is= this particular all-or-nothing situation. I then made six lujvo, one for e= ach category used in the cultural gismu, which, unlike this list or any oth= er like it, is immune from drift, and also has the added benefit of being m= ore exact than the cultural gismu.

For example, wh= at do I mean when I say {ko'a muslo}? Any number of things. It's a = very broad word. Too broad, in my opinion.

But if = I were to say {ko'a tutra'a la.isra'el.}, you'd know exactl= y what I meant, as long as you know that tutra'a ~=3D "is the coun= try of".

As a reminder:
    banra'a
  • klura'a
  • cemra'a
  • jdara= 'a
  • selgu'era'a
  • tutra'a
    • The ISO fu'ivla for countries are simply an attempt to have a cultur= al valsi of some type for all the countries. The same was done for language= s too, again using ISO codes. I was actually mildly surprised when no one a= nnounced they had done the same for religion et al., but I'm guessing i= t's because those don't have ISO codes. Regardless, it means that s= omeone went to a lot of trouble making hundreds of words that very few peop= le will use and even fewer will recognize without looking up.
Disagree with me if you like, doesn't bother me, but I thin= k having six easy to remember words that just need a cmene in the x2 is a m= uch better idea than hundreds of words that are only recognizable to people= with esoteric knowledge- ISO codes- that the vast majority of people will = never have a reason to know.

=
Today I needed names of all countries when translating Tatoeba.org int= erface. If you can't provide me with better ones I will continue using = existing ones.

Tatoeba.org production branch will = be updated in a week.

I need words.
= Don't criticize, provide options!


I also think they're ugl= y words as a whole and are far too similar to each other, but those are opi= nions even more subjective than my above statements.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Wed, Apr 15, 20= 15 at 7:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= wrote:


2015-04-15 16:24 GMT+03:00 Jon= athan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
I've never liked the ISO valsi. As far as I'm concerned, = this is just one more reason not to use them.

Do you have an alternative list of all countries?=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared to the original xorxe's= list around 15 countries don't have ISO now.

E.g.= =C2=A0St. Barth=C3=A9lemy was about to get .bl code however it didn't.<= /div>

Countrees disappear, ISO codes get reassigned. So = ISO-fuhivla are drifting apart from Lojban system.
I propose=C2= =A0
{gugdebulu} for St. Barth=C3=A9lemy
{gugdebuke} for= =C2=A0Caribbean Netherlands
{gugdecupu} for Clipperton Island
=
{gugdecuve}=C2=A0Cura=C3=A7ao
{gugdedugu} Diego Garcia=
{gugde'e'a}=C2=A0Ceuta & Melilla
{gugde= 9;e'u} European Union
{gugde'icu} Canary Islands
{gugdetu'a} Tristan da Cunha
{gugdeke'o}= Outlying Oceania
{gugdesusu} South Sudan
{gugdesux= e} Sint Maarten
{gugde'umu}=C2=A0U.S. Outlying Islands
<= div>{gugdevu'a} Vatican City
{gugdexuku} Kosovo
{gu= gdesuxe} St. Helena

The situation is somewhat = described here:

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be d= enpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I = am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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--f46d043bdb0829493a0513c5e41b--