Received: from mail-wi0-f187.google.com ([209.85.212.187]:33900) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj5To-0004tR-St for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:48 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf4350930wiv.1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=UUdxlXwNL4oIReEKzJkAFK7JT6juT6wJ/VdiL2G/reU=; b=gbLPBnC77JLTw7kNmboKkd+7/owMghyBfn21M1Sjq6fAa/7JAKcyXSG//ZneTJ75Ij NZK/iWEUH6vXPH2TjaLbqly4A1L1VbIGL5g7bu346nR7XhWAjFMeiMu+Cg9kDe5qv5I8 fnM1dpzqJFRZyd2t3RsWp++MFEJABhy6KaXweJaMwapZ/Ua50IOl3oOlRHVbY6LWglSp 261K0J/9TDrKkl4r4Uz7+aCLmliM8U4SwVTBHFafqMSc05nufPBInrbMlmr/pGFtsU0u VGbRxad7KLooWaxz0TFQlXpt2XKAK8WwAJKdaX3mDpXyNsisCrY8Mmns1wW+KxQpHhON hCfA== X-Received: by 10.152.8.229 with SMTP id u5mr25311laa.12.1429274078132; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.182.138 with SMTP id ee10ls473323lac.44.gmail; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.162.228 with SMTP id yd4mr1345221lbb.8.1429274077494; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q10si109067wiz.0.2015.04.17.05.34.37 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c; Received: by mail-wg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id o15so111864709wgy.2 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.9.98 with SMTP id y2mr5677431wja.85.1429274077373; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3445092.y6arOAxkEz@caracal> References: <9814383.5hbIdXKvdE@caracal> <3445092.y6arOAxkEz@caracal> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:34:16 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d8dabab28b70513eacd29 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b5d8dabab28b70513eacd29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-04-17 15:24 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : > On Friday, April 17, 2015 09:14:52 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > I need a table with two columns: ISO name of country, local name of > > country, local name of country in IPA, Lojbanized name of country. > > > > The second and third column is to be sure the Lojbanization is done > > correctly so that no rants appear. The fourth column could be done > > automatically. > > Some countries have more than one local name, and for some countries the > Lojban name is not made by spelling the local name in Lojban letters. > > Nagorno-Karabakh has several local languages. The "Karabakh" part (which > means > "black garden") is nearly invariable, but the "Nagorno" part appears as > "Le=E1=B9=99nayin" in Armenian, "Nagornyy" in Russian, and "Da=C4=9Fl=C4= =B1q" in Azeri. In > Lojban I call it "la poi ma'azva .karab=C3=A1x.". > > East Timor is Timor Leste in Portuguese and Tim=C3=B3r Lorosa'e in Tetum.= This > would be "la .sun.tim=C3=B3r." in Lojban. The Portuguese name is also use= d in > other > languages. How to Lojbanize it depends on what Portuguese accent you pick= . local accent. > It > could be "la .tim=C3=B3r.lest.", "la .tim=C3=B3r.lect.", or "la .tim=C3= =B3r.lectc.". What > to > do with the consonant cluster at the end, I'm not sure. "lectic" maybe? > > Belarus is "la .blabruk." blabruk is reworking of the name of the country etymologically. > from pre-dotside days. Under dotside, "la .b=C3=A9larus." > is also valid. > > Myanmar was "la .mianmar." until the CGV initial was abolished. That make= s > it > "la .mranmar." reflecting the spelling. (Rangoon was respelled Yangon for > the > same reason. The letter corresponding to =E0=AA=B0 is now pronounced /j/.= ) The > brivla > form cannot be "mranma" because that's a slinku'i. I suggest "amranma". Why you suggest? Do you have a general algorithm for that? > The > final 'r' is an artifact of rhotic and non-rhotic dialects of English. > > Countries that have a gismu have a cmene based on it. Usually it has "-gu= g" > appended, but Egypt is just "la .misr.". "la .frans." appears in a poem i= n > Alice, but "la .fasygug." is also in use. (The corpus is down.) > So for now I can only see separate unconnected proposals that not only native speakers are likely to challenge but even we don't know how to handle in general. The same holds for names of languages. I used ISO-names because their list is complete. Until a full algorithm is proposed for Lojbanizing the whole set of countries and languages I will continue using only those algorithms that allow us to handle what Transifex or any other projects require. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b5d8dabab28b70513eacd29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-04-17 15:24 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Friday, April = 17, 2015 09:14:52 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> I need a table with two columns: ISO name of country, local name of > country, local name of country in IPA, Lojbanized name of country.
>
> The second and third column is to be sure the Lojbanization is done > correctly so that no rants appear. The fourth column could be done
> automatically.

Some countries have more than one local name, and for some countries= the
Lojban name is not made by spelling the local name in Lojban letters.

Nagorno-Karabakh has several local languages. The "Karabakh" part= (which means
"black garden") is nearly invariable, but the "Nagorno"= part appears as
"Le=E1=B9=99nayin" in Armenian, "Nagornyy" in Russian, = and "Da=C4=9Fl=C4=B1q" in Azeri. In
Lojban I call it "la poi ma'azva .karab=C3=A1x.".

East Timor is Timor Leste in Portuguese and Tim=C3=B3r Lorosa'e in Tetu= m. This
would be "la .sun.tim=C3=B3r." in Lojban. The Portuguese name is = also used in other
languages. How to Lojbanize it depends on what Portuguese accent you pick.<= /blockquote>

local accent.
=C2=A0
It
could be "la .tim=C3=B3r.lest.", "la .tim=C3=B3r.lect."= , or "la .tim=C3=B3r.lectc.". What to
do with the consonant cluster at the end, I'm not sure. "lectic&qu= ot; maybe?

Belarus is "la .blabruk."

blabruk= is reworking of the name of the country etymologically.
=C2=A0
from pre-dotside days. Under dotside, &= quot;la .b=C3=A9larus."
is also valid.

Myanmar was "la .mianmar." until the CGV initial was abolished. T= hat makes it
"la .mranmar." reflecting the spelling. (Rangoon was respelled Ya= ngon for the
same reason. The letter corresponding to =E0=AA=B0 is now pronounced /j/.) = The brivla
form cannot be "mranma" because that's a slinku'i. I sugg= est "amranma".

Why you suggest? = Do you have a general algorithm for that?
=C2=A0
The
final 'r' is an artifact of rhotic and non-rhotic dialects of Engli= sh.

Countries that have a gismu have a cmene based on it. Usually it has "= -gug"
appended, but Egypt is just "la .misr.". "la .frans." a= ppears in a poem in
Alice, but "la .fasygug." is also in use. (The corpus is down.)

So for now I can only see separate uncon= nected proposals that not only native speakers are likely to challenge but = even we don't know how to handle in general.
The same holds f= or names of languages. I used ISO-names because their list is complete.

Until a full algorithm is proposed for Lojbanizing th= e whole set of countries and languages I will continue using only those alg= orithms that allow us to handle what Transifex or any other projects requir= e.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b5d8dabab28b70513eacd29--