Received: from mail-ie0-f190.google.com ([209.85.223.190]:34563) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YjcCo-0000wg-9u for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:27 -0700 Received: by iebtr6 with SMTP id tr6sf26250737ieb.1 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=e4aBS5Xyr9C7FjivxeVX1YJO61cseD/eRc+bTAz4YKA=; b=a73WDVrdu+CvF9znS45Zh/y5HmpIHXr3pgXVY5bOQyG91emzVl9/G9tzpK3yx4z05x yOHQNyhXQf9DeLHWDKW2ZtaV8NxsckX3dIqTL6+EZ2iMr6oIq1YddR9iR4wayO4l1V7v VkD73qRMj2ugbLLPITKds9bdIFOoYAytKd7AoIbXbNqxRCnWa7H/nJMOTIlT83bpLfXA QsRGwL337Og6VjKJpJnXrAfl9m2AizjoA8LGNCirOgQ8a1vrocqpy9ERhDwqVZAsPH2u AxICBbag54px5XMM67HYIGN+dliEbLiNt20DYcV6GbkLv1BlfjP80Mxt6zYYLzFTiVpK /AHw== X-Received: by 10.140.104.72 with SMTP id z66mr121533qge.14.1429399876104; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.101.10 with SMTP id t10ls2254509qge.69.gmail; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.93.226 with SMTP id d89mr124260qge.38.1429399875832; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) From: iesk To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <04a2d875-244c-4d13-8720-f2e1f46049f4@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <9814383.5hbIdXKvdE@caracal> <3445092.y6arOAxkEz@caracal> Subject: Re: [lojban] Situation with ISO-fuhivla for countries. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1224_1657081800.1429399875515" X-Original-Sender: pa.fae@gmx.de Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1224_1657081800.1429399875515 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1225_2005878304.1429399875515" ------=_Part_1225_2005878304.1429399875515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are countries with several official names in several languages. There= =20 are countries where the official name is in a language not used by the=20 majority of the locals, and possibly doesn't mean a lot to them. And so on. I don't think this can be algorithmically solved, or that there is a=20 linguistically neutral solution that anybody would be happy with. Just for the fun of doing it, I made a little list where I kind of dropped= =20 neutrality (as per impossibility of attaining it)=E2=80=94starting from an= =20 existing, yet blatantly non-neutral approach at standardisation:=20 Interlingua. Yes, totally un-Lojbanic. It's not a serious proposal. Anyway:= =20 http://mw.lojban.org/papri/File:fuhivla-cou2.ods Btw, I do like the ISO zi'evla. Le vendredi 17 avril 2015 14:34:38 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2015-04-17 15:24 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat = > > : > >> On Friday, April 17, 2015 09:14:52 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >> > I need a table with two columns: ISO name of country, local name of >> > country, local name of country in IPA, Lojbanized name of country. >> > >> > The second and third column is to be sure the Lojbanization is done >> > correctly so that no rants appear. The fourth column could be done >> > automatically. >> >> Some countries have more than one local name, and for some countries the >> Lojban name is not made by spelling the local name in Lojban letters. >> >> Nagorno-Karabakh has several local languages. The "Karabakh" part (which= =20 >> means >> "black garden") is nearly invariable, but the "Nagorno" part appears as >> "Le=E1=B9=99nayin" in Armenian, "Nagornyy" in Russian, and "Da=C4=9Fl=C4= =B1q" in Azeri. In >> Lojban I call it "la poi ma'azva .karab=C3=A1x.". >> >> East Timor is Timor Leste in Portuguese and Tim=C3=B3r Lorosa'e in Tetum= . This >> would be "la .sun.tim=C3=B3r." in Lojban. The Portuguese name is also us= ed in=20 >> other >> languages. How to Lojbanize it depends on what Portuguese accent you pic= k. > > > local accent. > =20 > >> It >> could be "la .tim=C3=B3r.lest.", "la .tim=C3=B3r.lect.", or "la .tim=C3= =B3r.lectc.".=20 >> What to >> do with the consonant cluster at the end, I'm not sure. "lectic" maybe? >> >> Belarus is "la .blabruk." > > > blabruk is reworking of the name of the country etymologically. > =20 > >> from pre-dotside days. Under dotside, "la .b=C3=A9larus." >> is also valid. >> >> Myanmar was "la .mianmar." until the CGV initial was abolished. That=20 >> makes it >> "la .mranmar." reflecting the spelling. (Rangoon was respelled Yangon fo= r=20 >> the >> same reason. The letter corresponding to =E0=AA=B0 is now pronounced /j/= .) The=20 >> brivla >> form cannot be "mranma" because that's a slinku'i. I suggest "amranma".= =20 > > > Why you suggest? Do you have a general algorithm for that? > =20 > >> The >> final 'r' is an artifact of rhotic and non-rhotic dialects of English. >> >> Countries that have a gismu have a cmene based on it. Usually it has=20 >> "-gug" >> appended, but Egypt is just "la .misr.". "la .frans." appears in a poem = in >> Alice, but "la .fasygug." is also in use. (The corpus is down.) >> > > So for now I can only see separate unconnected proposals that not only=20 > native speakers are likely to challenge but even we don't know how to=20 > handle in general. > The same holds for names of languages. I used ISO-names because their lis= t=20 > is complete. > > Until a full algorithm is proposed for Lojbanizing the whole set of=20 > countries and languages I will continue using only those algorithms that= =20 > allow us to handle what Transifex or any other projects require. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1225_2005878304.1429399875515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are countries with several official names in several= languages. There are countries where the official name is in a language no= t used by the majority of the locals, and possibly doesn't mean a lot to th= em. And so on.

I don't think this can be algorithmically solved, or = that there is a linguistically neutral solution that anybody would be happy= with.

Just for the fun of doing it, I made a little list where I ki= nd of dropped neutrality (as per impossibility of attaining it)=E2=80=94sta= rting from an existing, yet blatantly non-neutral approach at standardisati= on: Interlingua. Yes, totally un-Lojbanic. It's not a serious proposal. Any= way: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/File:fuhivla-cou2.ods

Btw, I do like= the ISO zi'evla.

Le vendredi 17 avril 2015 14:34:38 UTC+2, la gleki= a =C3=A9crit :


2015-04-17 15:24 GMT+03:00= Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org>:
On Friday, April 17, 2015 09:14:52 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> I need a table with two columns: ISO name of country, local name of > country, local name of country in IPA, Lojbanized name of country.
>
> The second and third column is to be sure the Lojbanization is done > correctly so that no rants appear. The fourth column could be done
> automatically.

Some countries have more than one local name, and for some countries= the
Lojban name is not made by spelling the local name in Lojban letters.

Nagorno-Karabakh has several local languages. The "Karabakh" part (which me= ans
"black garden") is nearly invariable, but the "Nagorno" part appears as
"Le=E1=B9=99nayin" in Armenian, "Nagornyy" in Russian, and "Da=C4=9Fl=C4=B1= q" in Azeri. In
Lojban I call it "la poi ma'azva .karab=C3=A1x.".

East Timor is Timor Leste in Portuguese and Tim=C3=B3r Lorosa'e in Tetum. T= his
would be "la .sun.tim=C3=B3r." in Lojban. The Portuguese name is also used = in other
languages. How to Lojbanize it depends on what Portuguese accent you pick.<= /blockquote>

local accent.
 
It
could be "la .tim=C3=B3r.lest.", "la .tim=C3=B3r.lect.", or "la .tim=C3=B3r= .lectc.". What to
do with the consonant cluster at the end, I'm not sure. "lectic" maybe?

Belarus is "la .blabruk."

blabruk is rework= ing of the name of the country etymologically.
 
from pre-dotside days. Under dotside, "la .b=C3= =A9larus."
is also valid.

Myanmar was "la .mianmar." until the CGV initial was abolished. That makes = it
"la .mranmar." reflecting the spelling. (Rangoon was respelled Yangon for t= he
same reason. The letter corresponding to =E0=AA=B0 is now pronounced /j/.) = The brivla
form cannot be "mranma" because that's a slinku'i. I suggest "amranma".

Why you suggest? Do you have a general algori= thm for that?
 
The
final 'r' is an artifact of rhotic and non-rhotic dialects of English.

Countries that have a gismu have a cmene based on it. Usually it has "-gug"=
appended, but Egypt is just "la .misr.". "la .frans." appears in a poem in<= br> Alice, but "la .fasygug." is also in use. (The corpus is down.)

So for now I can only see separate unconnected pro= posals that not only native speakers are likely to challenge but even we do= n't know how to handle in general.
The same holds for names of la= nguages. I used ISO-names because their list is complete.

Until a full algorithm is proposed for Lojbanizing the whole set of= countries and languages I will continue using only those algorithms that a= llow us to handle what Transifex or any other projects require.
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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