Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:34761) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YlLNM-0002gF-Ij for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:28 -0700 Received: by wggy19 with SMTP id y19sf9209537wgg.1 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=+khtnrKs1BU0r8XkdnHfwdZZmmQ5UpKI1LdXOmXgAO0=; b=fl1UWTyrlRcWAtWU0fqHpdOwMjQwqsxuL76sN5rL+9bBOMOxT70sA+mOj3S8Gkoz9Q u62LQ+X7nTNb/ZsxjsWoCz7IBQUZs2fnf++SVZ6cKwZungURCBtBlerCRZSSVwgxmlZv zPXr/08o1vbsifDkNhQs4pEvhjDW3N8pUFf2WYJTqUQMOBzTlzoLeE5Wqvy4Ixx88i68 +jTFM9pYPTnTVBWcEY5PYTdxMNJBqmwQ8zk0eqV5eCDrlilsB8ZH/EPXUHM1blxn20yj MC69myBqRud9PweeQP4ucoNPCQ4eS/KoA+ZqTlvRSL34qppI+l8Z7DN3D5cmBLsuPmHl uW1w== X-Received: by 10.180.104.3 with SMTP id ga3mr130662wib.9.1429811837919; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.95.230 with SMTP id dn6ls29964wib.33.canary; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.88.226 with SMTP id bj2mr4481893wib.7.1429811837319; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22d.google.com (mail-wg0-x22d.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p9si560015wiz.3.2015.04.23.10.57.17 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d; Received: by mail-wg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o15so26536224wgy.2 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.84.67 with SMTP id w3mr2105541wiy.68.1429811837187; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.175.1 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <550EC85E.7070206@gmail.com> References: <550EC85E.7070206@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:57:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] On the meanings of the causal gismu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04440276a6bd8f051468024b X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04440276a6bd8f051468024b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My two cents: On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Ilmen wrote: > > =E2=80=A2 jalge =3D x1 (action/event/state) is a result/outcome/conclus= ion of > antecedent x2 (event/state/process). =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Also: x2 gives ri= se to x1 (=3D > selja'e for reordered places); total (general meaning, but also =3D mekyj= a'e, > pi'irja'e, sujyja'e). > =E2=80=A2 rinka =3D x1 (event/state) effects/physically causes effect x2 > (event/state) under conditions x3. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 x1 is a material co= ndition for x2; x1 > gives rise to x2. > =E2=80=A2 banzu =3D x1 (object) suffices/is enough/sufficient for purpose= x2 under > conditions x3. > =E2=80=A2 bapli =3D x1 [force] (ka) forces/compels event x2 to occur; x1 = determines > property x2 to manifest. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Also constrains; requires suc= cess, unlike the > physics term (better expressed by danre). > =E2=80=A2 danre =3D x1 (force) puts pressure on/presses/applies force to = x2. |>>> > Agentive press/depress (=3D da'ergau, da'erzu'e). > > > =E2=80=94 What is the semantic difference between {selja'e}, {rinka} and = {bapli}? > Does {selja'e} express a weaker relation than that expressed by {rinka}? > I tend to treat selja'e as a vaguer version of rinka/krinu/nibli/mukti . It also encompasses things like "lo nu ga'orgau lo ckule cu jalge lo nu lo ckule kamni cu jdijmaji" It wasn't the meeting's motive, cause, reason, or entailment to close to the school, but nonetheless, it was the outcome. > =E2=80=94 The notes of {rinka} say it is a material condition; however, a= true > logical material condition (ganai...gi...) does not express any > causal/physical relationship (if I'm not mistaken), which seems to > contradict the main definition of {rinka}. So, does {rinka} entails a > causal relationship? > > rinka is a "material condition", which is not the same as "material conditional" (ganai ... gi) Material here does indeed mean a physical cause (cf. the way Karl Marx uses "material conditions") So "He hit her, so she fell down" would use rinka. So would "It was a hot day, so the fields dried up". > =E2=80=94 Is {danre} the right word for the physics notion of "force"? If= so, what > {bapli} is all about? > > Bapli does not imply a force in the physics notion. It's more like in the sense of "a force of nature". e.g. "He forced the banker to tell him the combination of the safe" "the heavy flow of water forced the dam to break" (hence the synonym 'compel') > =E2=80=94 Which of the three below meanings should {banzu} have? (All of = the below > meanings are used in actual usage, making {banzu} a polysemous predicate.= ) > 1) That x1 happens is a sufficient condition for x2 to happen. > 2) The amount x1 (ni) is great enough for x2 to happen. > 3) The amount of x1 having property x2 is great enough for x3 to happen. > > #1 parallels {sarcu} and seems redundant to {rinka}; #2 is the same thing > as {banzuni} ; #3 parallels the > meaning/usage for {dukse}, and sometimes {banzuka} is used for this meani= ng. > There is a reason the x1 says "(object)". For example "lo smuci cu banzu lo ka lo pinfu cu kakpa fo ce'u ja'e lo nu rivli'a" ("the spoon was sufficient for the prisoner to dig with to escape"). I opine you might be able to use #2, also. > Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > > Best regards, Ilmen. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04440276a6bd8f051468024b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My two cents: =C2=A0=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Ilmen <i= lmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

=E2=80=A2 jalge =3D x1 (action/event/= state) is a result/outcome/conclusion of antecedent x2 (event/state/process). =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Also: x2 gives rise= to x1 (=3D selja'e for reordered places); total (general meaning, bu= t also =3D mekyja'e, pi'irja'e, sujyja'e).
=E2=80=A2 rinka =3D x1 (event/state) effects/physically cause= s effect x2 (event/state) under conditions x3. =E2=80=94=E2=80= =94 x1 is a material condition for x2; x1 gives rise to x2.
=E2=80=A2 banzu =3D x1 (object) suffices/is enough/sufficient= for purpose x2 under conditions x3.
=E2=80=A2 bapli =3D x1 [force] (ka) forces/compels event x2 t= o occur; x1 determines property x2 to manifest. =E2=80=94=E2=80= =94 Also constrains; requires success, unlike the physics term (better expressed by danre).
=E2=80=A2 danre =3D x1 (force) puts pressure on/presses/appli= es force to x2. |>>> Agentive press/depress (=3D da'ergau, da'erzu'e).



=E2=80=94 What is the semantic difference between {selja'e}, {rinka= } and {bapli}? Does {selja'e} express a weaker relation than that expressed by {rinka}?

=C2=A0 = I tend to treat selja'e as a vaguer version of rinka/krinu/nibli/mukti = . It also encompasses things like "lo nu ga'orgau lo ckule cu jalg= e lo nu lo ckule kamni cu jdijmaji" =C2=A0It wasn't the meeting= 9;s motive, cause, reason, or entailment to close to the school, but noneth= eless, it was the outcome.

=C2=A0
=E2=80=94 The notes of {rinka} say it is a material condition; however,= a true logical material condition (ganai...gi...) does not express any causal/physical relationship (if I'm not mistaken), which seems to contradict the main definition of {rinka}. So, does {rinka} entails a causal relationship?


=C2=A0 rinka is a "mate= rial condition", which is not the same as "material conditional&q= uot; (ganai ... gi) =C2=A0 Material here does indeed mean a physical cause = (cf. the way Karl Marx uses "material conditions") So "He hi= t her, so she fell down" would use rinka.=C2=A0 So would "It was = a hot day, so the fields dried up". =C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=E2=80=94 Is {danre} the right word for the physics notion of "for= ce"? If so, what {bapli} is all about?


=C2=A0 Bapli does not imply = a force in the physics notion.=C2=A0 It's more like in the sense of &qu= ot;a force of nature". =C2=A0e.g. "He forced the banker to tell h= im the combination of the safe" "the heavy flow of water forced t= he dam to break" (hence the synonym 'compel') =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=E2=80=94 Which of the three below meanings should {banzu} have? (All o= f the below meanings are used in actual usage, making {banzu} a polysemous predicate.)
1) That x1 happens is a sufficient condition for x2 to happen.
2) The amount x1 (ni) is great enough for x2 to happen.
3) The amount of x1 having property x2 is great enough for x3 to happen.

#1 parallels {sarcu} and seems redundant to {rinka}; #2 is the same thing as {banzuni}; #3 parallels the meaning/usage for {dukse}, and sometimes {banzuka} is used for this meaning.

=C2= =A0There is a reason the x1 says "(object)".=C2=A0 For example &q= uot;lo smuci =C2=A0cu banzu lo ka lo pinfu cu kakpa fo ce'u ja'e lo= nu rivli'a" =C2=A0("the spoon was sufficient for the prisone= r to dig with to escape").=C2=A0 I opine you might be able to use #2, = also.
=C2=A0
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
=C2=A0

Best regards, Ilmen.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04440276a6bd8f051468024b--