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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 14:07:02 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+j_3hkqjink+e33yj8jA55LEZ4WEenPrFfEdKN8C7raWA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] It's been a long time.
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2015-05-08 12:33 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com>:

> coi za'u re'u loi jbotadni
>
> Wow, the memories are flooding back. I was part of that old mailing list
> waaay back when. Checking my email archive it was... 2008? Heh. In that
> time I had discovered much about myself I didn't know about before, found
> some new hobbies.
>
> Well, a conversation about philology and linguistics, both natural and
> constructed, had suddenly reminded me of Lojban; I thought I'd take a peek
> a what happened when I was gone... and... wow. You guys have really gone up
> and remodeled the place. "Dot side", the "xorlo" reform, new *cmavo* like
> *mi'ai*, *la'oi*, etc. (I might still need some of these explained to
> me), rewriting the language primer... not to mention ongoing talk about
> reducing logical connectives to a single set, and even possible abolishment
> of the short *rafsi* system... I was even surprised at little things like
> the deprecation of *tirxu* in favor of *tigra*.
>

deprecation where? I'm not aware of any wordlists that say {tirxu} is
abandoned.
What you could see are proposals for new words that may have new meanings.
E.g. {tirxu} isn't limited to tigers thus it has a purely Lojbanic range of
meanings whereas {tigra} would be bound to tigers only as many languages do
(technically this proposal was to deal with the weird situation of still
having a gismu for a very close big cat "lion").

Similarly, {mi'ai} was proposed to deal with texts where one cannot decide
whether "we" corresponds to {mi'a}, {ma'a}, {mi'o} or something else (take
"Pater noster" text). Thus this word among other things can prevent
possible rants once this word isn't necessarily polysemous.


After I got over the initial shock though, I found myself agreeing with
> pretty much all these changes.
>
> I was never very fluent at Lojban, and I'm not sure how much time I have
> to dedicate to that goal now. But even through all these changes, which I
> quite appreciate for "cleaning up" a lot of clutter, including stuff I
> didn't realize *was* clutter, I still see the elements that attracted me
> in the first place; the idea of a language with both syntactic and semantic
> rigor as core ideals, that challenged assumptions about what language could
> be like.
>
> (Yes, I'm aware that this rigor takes different forms on both cases. The
> syntactic rigor of Lojban eliminates syntactic ambiguity if used correctly,
> but eliminating semantic ambiguity is impossible without specifying and
> tense-marking everything to oblivion. However, semantic *rigor*, though
> not perfect [see the ongoing discussion about *tarci* "star (celestial
> object)" versus "star (shape)"], means that each word represents one
> specific Platonic idea/relation, in contrast to English (and other natural
> languages), where words typically have {Platonic idea/relation +
> connotational baggage + figurative senses + other Platonic ideas/relations
> that may have had some tangential relationship with the original idea and
> figurative senses long ago + unrelated ideas from a completely different
> word that merged into this word}... as an amateur philologist this can be
> quite beautiful in its own right. But I also very much liked the idea of a
> language where one could "say what they mean and mean what they say".)
>
> Anyway, glad to be reacquainted.
>
> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2015-05-08 12:33 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spheniscine@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spheniscine@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">coi za&#39;u=
 re&#39;u loi jbotadni<div><br></div><div>Wow, the memories are flooding ba=
ck. I was part of that old mailing list waaay back when. Checking my email =
archive it was... 2008? Heh. In that time I had discovered much about mysel=
f I didn&#39;t know about before, found some new hobbies.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Well, a conversation about philology and linguistics, both natural =
and constructed, had suddenly reminded me of Lojban; I thought I&#39;d take=
 a peek a what happened when I was gone... and... wow. You guys have really=
 gone up and remodeled the place. &quot;Dot side&quot;, the &quot;xorlo&quo=
t; reform, new <i>cmavo</i>=C2=A0like <i>mi&#39;ai</i>, <i>la&#39;oi</i>, e=
tc. (I might still need some of these explained to me), rewriting the langu=
age primer... not to mention ongoing talk about reducing logical connective=
s to a single set, and even possible abolishment of the short <i>rafsi</i> =
system... I was even surprised at little things like the deprecation of <i>=
tirxu</i>=C2=A0in favor of <i>tigra</i>.</div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>deprecation where? I&#39;m not aware of any wordlists that say {t=
irxu} is abandoned.</div><div>What you could see are proposals for new word=
s that may have new meanings.</div><div>E.g. {tirxu} isn&#39;t limited to t=
igers thus it has a purely Lojbanic range of meanings whereas {tigra} would=
 be bound to tigers only as many languages do (technically this proposal wa=
s to deal with the weird situation of still having a gismu for a very close=
 big cat &quot;lion&quot;).</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly, {mi&#39;ai}=
 was proposed to deal with texts where one cannot decide whether &quot;we&q=
uot; corresponds to {mi&#39;a}, {ma&#39;a}, {mi&#39;o} or something else (t=
ake &quot;Pater noster&quot; text). Thus this word among other things can p=
revent possible rants once this word isn&#39;t necessarily polysemous.</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div> After I got over the initial shock though, I found myself agreein=
g with pretty much all these changes.</div><div><br></div><div>I was never =
very fluent at Lojban, and I&#39;m not sure how much time I have to dedicat=
e to that goal now. But even through all these changes, which I quite appre=
ciate for &quot;cleaning up&quot; a lot of clutter, including stuff I didn&=
#39;t realize <i>was</i> clutter, I still see the elements that attracted m=
e in the first place; the idea of a language with both syntactic and semant=
ic rigor as core ideals, that challenged assumptions about what language co=
uld be like.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, I&#39;m aware that this r=
igor takes different forms on both cases. The syntactic rigor of Lojban eli=
minates syntactic ambiguity if used correctly, but eliminating semantic amb=
iguity is impossible without specifying and tense-marking everything to obl=
ivion. However, semantic <i>rigor</i>, though not perfect [see the ongoing =
discussion about <i>tarci</i>=C2=A0&quot;star (celestial object)&quot; vers=
us &quot;star (shape)&quot;], means that each word represents one specific =
Platonic idea/relation, in contrast to English (and other natural languages=
), where words typically have {Platonic idea/relation + connotational bagga=
ge + figurative senses + other Platonic ideas/relations that may have had s=
ome tangential relationship with the original idea and figurative senses lo=
ng ago + unrelated ideas from a completely different word that merged into =
this word}... as an amateur philologist this can be quite beautiful in its =
own right. But I also very much liked the idea of a language where one coul=
d &quot;say what they mean and mean what they say&quot;.)</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Anyway, glad to be reacquainted.</div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb">=
<font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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