Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 05:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: It's been a long time.
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Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our" clearly doesn't 
include the addressee (God/the Father). Similarly with "give us this day 
our daily bread".

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 5:33:54 PM UTC+8, Spheniscine wrote:
>
> coi za'u re'u loi jbotadni
>
> Wow, the memories are flooding back. I was part of that old mailing list 
> waaay back when. Checking my email archive it was... 2008? Heh. In that 
> time I had discovered much about myself I didn't know about before, found 
> some new hobbies.
>
> Well, a conversation about philology and linguistics, both natural and 
> constructed, had suddenly reminded me of Lojban; I thought I'd take a peek 
> a what happened when I was gone... and... wow. You guys have really gone up 
> and remodeled the place. "Dot side", the "xorlo" reform, new *cmavo* like 
> *mi'ai*, *la'oi*, etc. (I might still need some of these explained to 
> me), rewriting the language primer... not to mention ongoing talk about 
> reducing logical connectives to a single set, and even possible abolishment 
> of the short *rafsi* system... I was even surprised at little things like 
> the deprecation of *tirxu* in favor of *tigra*. After I got over the 
> initial shock though, I found myself agreeing with pretty much all these 
> changes.
>
> I was never very fluent at Lojban, and I'm not sure how much time I have 
> to dedicate to that goal now. But even through all these changes, which I 
> quite appreciate for "cleaning up" a lot of clutter, including stuff I 
> didn't realize *was* clutter, I still see the elements that attracted me 
> in the first place; the idea of a language with both syntactic and semantic 
> rigor as core ideals, that challenged assumptions about what language could 
> be like. 
>
> (Yes, I'm aware that this rigor takes different forms on both cases. The 
> syntactic rigor of Lojban eliminates syntactic ambiguity if used correctly, 
> but eliminating semantic ambiguity is impossible without specifying and 
> tense-marking everything to oblivion. However, semantic *rigor*, though 
> not perfect [see the ongoing discussion about *tarci* "star (celestial 
> object)" versus "star (shape)"], means that each word represents one 
> specific Platonic idea/relation, in contrast to English (and other natural 
> languages), where words typically have {Platonic idea/relation + 
> connotational baggage + figurative senses + other Platonic ideas/relations 
> that may have had some tangential relationship with the original idea and 
> figurative senses long ago + unrelated ideas from a completely different 
> word that merged into this word}... as an amateur philologist this can be 
> quite beautiful in its own right. But I also very much liked the idea of a 
> language where one could "say what they mean and mean what they say".)
>
> Anyway, glad to be reacquainted.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our" c=
learly doesn't include the addressee (God/the Father). Similarly with "give=
 us this day our daily bread".<br><br>On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 5:33:54 PM =
UTC+8, Spheniscine wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">coi za'u re'u loi jbotadni<div><br></div><div>Wow, the memories=
 are flooding back. I was part of that old mailing list waaay back when. Ch=
ecking my email archive it was... 2008? Heh. In that time I had discovered =
much about myself I didn't know about before, found some new hobbies.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Well, a conversation about philology and linguistics, b=
oth natural and constructed, had suddenly reminded me of Lojban; I thought =
I'd take a peek a what happened when I was gone... and... wow. You guys hav=
e really gone up and remodeled the place. "Dot side", the "xorlo" reform, n=
ew <i>cmavo</i>&nbsp;like <i>mi'ai</i>, <i>la'oi</i>, etc. (I might still n=
eed some of these explained to me), rewriting the language primer... not to=
 mention ongoing talk about reducing logical connectives to a single set, a=
nd even possible abolishment of the short <i>rafsi</i> system... I was even=
 surprised at little things like the deprecation of <i>tirxu</i>&nbsp;in fa=
vor of <i>tigra</i>. After I got over the initial shock though, I found mys=
elf agreeing with pretty much all these changes.</div><div><br></div><div>I=
 was never very fluent at Lojban, and I'm not sure how much time I have to =
dedicate to that goal now. But even through all these changes, which I quit=
e appreciate for "cleaning up" a lot of clutter, including stuff I didn't r=
ealize <i>was</i> clutter, I still see the elements that attracted me in th=
e first place; the idea of a language with both syntactic and semantic rigo=
r as core ideals, that challenged assumptions about what language could be =
like.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, I'm aware that this rigor takes =
different forms on both cases. The syntactic rigor of Lojban eliminates syn=
tactic ambiguity if used correctly, but eliminating semantic ambiguity is i=
mpossible without specifying and tense-marking everything to oblivion. Howe=
ver, semantic <i>rigor</i>, though not perfect [see the ongoing discussion =
about <i>tarci</i>&nbsp;"star (celestial object)" versus "star (shape)"], m=
eans that each word represents one specific Platonic idea/relation, in cont=
rast to English (and other natural languages), where words typically have {=
Platonic idea/relation + connotational baggage + figurative senses + other =
Platonic ideas/relations that may have had some tangential relationship wit=
h the original idea and figurative senses long ago + unrelated ideas from a=
 completely different word that merged into this word}... as an amateur phi=
lologist this can be quite beautiful in its own right. But I also very much=
 liked the idea of a language where one could "say what they mean and mean =
what they say".)</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, glad to be reacquainted.<=
/div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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