Received: from mail-wi0-f191.google.com ([209.85.212.191]:34459) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YqlOs-0006bE-J4 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:26 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf11617984wiv.1 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=NbtNP1GxefvodBG6SbuZJzlNxIv7JP0irM82pOVNW+A=; b=R7APnWbw+EUXE+4OH41ypXC0NQ9D1Z4ti0yzW3isRWAH7Bxa3zhtaJOBxDysyVoBgO ETe7Oq5TkbvU4vH5VyGlbS85Lidt/UUK+CmQ3dI0HMBLk1KHZpbhMuou+wSmojHU953l n3AxSZziVL/K3ucfeyUiAMn2Kqm8WCmjK775dOX8Pw54fI/mrhMe2g470bZcPkBGuZpT 0GVV7SPD67mjIi1oYCQ+xXMJ5AOY+O/+R3R6UnUez4Voy6DQZnSK1DQ7LWAIfHBTw/rD +iPLlFVaS6U7DiAdmiWfdfPQ8ISu7X4NH+ZpXY3S6eW2gVVDUkRF3Nyx0SRuaBaf6C8D JO1Q== X-Received: by 10.152.87.168 with SMTP id az8mr74226lab.31.1431103515936; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.88.110 with SMTP id bf14ls351723lab.48.gmail; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.203.233 with SMTP id kt9mr2477105lac.7.1431103515327; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g5si470193wix.1.2015.05.08.09.45.15 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d; Received: by mail-wi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id di4so36462640wid.0 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.181.13.198 with SMTP id fa6mr7865903wid.41.1431103515210; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 8 May 2015 09:44:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <494619f2-d28a-4893-a7c2-14c6d78f817c@googlegroups.com> <6af25e33-7de5-4b0d-abf6-72192aafdb48@googlegroups.com> <20150508143112.GA2051@kuebelreiter.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 19:44:54 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's been a long time. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043d6489a93a42051594c01e X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043d6489a93a42051594c01e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There are different translations of the Bible and sometimes different understanding leads to different movements within Christianity. The prayer should reflect the original meaning and don't raise such doubts. Although, I agree that when saying {ko'a patfu ko'a} I was half-joking. I wasn't with {mi} vs. {mi'a/ma'a}. 2015-05-08 19:31 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Soo : > "I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretation?" > > No it isn't... though Christians believe in the Father, Son, Spirit, the > prayer is clearly addressed to the Father, and they certainly won't address > God as somehow being his own Father. > > source: Yeah I'm one > > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-08 17:31 GMT+03:00 v4hn : >> >>> On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 04:53:42PM +0300, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> > 2015-05-08 15:53 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine : >>> > > Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our" clearly >>> doesn't >>> > > include the addressee (God/the Father). >>> > >>> > Who knows, maybe Father is the father of himself. >>> >>> I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretation? >>> It sounds ridiculous to me. >>> >> >> Sorry, I'm not an expert. Some say other religions are ridiculous. >> Translation can be very important. You wouldn't complaint that 3=1, would >> you? Is that more ridiculous? >> >>> >>> > Also {ma'a} is possible like e.g. Father not only of Christians but >>> even >>> > those who don't believe in Him. >>> > [...] >>> > {mi'a} would mean here something completely different and for some it >>> may >>> > sound egoistic. >>> >>> Sorry, you lost me. Why wouldn't {mi'a} include others? >>> The addressee is clearly the Father, not heathens. >>> Both {mi'a} and {ma'a} include "& others unspecified" in their >>> definition. >>> >> >> >> Oops, indeed, my mistake. It should be {mi} (which is also "we") vs. >> {mi'a}. >> >> >>> >>> >>> v4hn >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/Q10NFUJ0u8s/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043d6489a93a42051594c01e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are different translations of the Bible and sometime= s different understanding leads to different movements within Christianity.= The prayer should reflect the original meaning and don't raise such do= ubts. Although, I agree that when saying {ko'a patfu ko'a} I was ha= lf-joking.
I wasn't with {mi} vs. {mi'a/ma'a}.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2015-05-08 19:31 G= MT+03:00 Jonathan Soo <spheniscine@gmail.com>:
"I'm not a Christi= an, but is that even a *possible* interpretation?"

No it is= n't... though Christians believe in the Father, Son, Spirit, the prayer= is clearly addressed to the Father, and they certainly won't address G= od as somehow being his own Father.

source: Yeah I'm one

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-08 17:31 = GMT+03:00 v4hn <me@v4hn.de>:
On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 04:53:42PM +0300, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> 2015-05-08 15:53 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com>:
> > Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our&= quot; clearly doesn't
> > include the addressee (God/the Father).
>
> Who knows, maybe Father is the father of himself.

I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretatio= n?
It sounds ridiculous to me.

Sorr= y, I'm not an expert. Some say other religions are ridiculous. Translat= ion can be very important. You wouldn't complaint that 3=3D1, would you= ? Is that more ridiculous?

> Also {ma'a} is possible like e.g. Father not only of Christians bu= t even
> those who don't believe in Him.
> [...]
> {mi'a} would mean here something completely different and fo= r some it may
> sound egoistic.

Sorry, you lost me. Why wouldn't {mi'a} include others?
The addressee is clearly the Father, not heathens.
Both {mi'a} and {ma'a} include "& others unspecified"= in their definition.


=
Oops, indeed, my mistake. It should be {mi} (which is also "we&qu= ot;) vs. {mi'a}.
=C2=A0


v4hn

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